FRAM Ultra @20K Miles

[Hearhear]

What exactly is the purpose of this thread? To convince people to leave a Fram filter on for 20 thousand miles? Or is the OP having nagging thoughts and just trying to make himself feel better for doing so? Leaving an oil filter on for 20k is just laziness in my opinion. Especially with a filter brand that has such a mixed reputation. It’s reckless. It’s so easy and inexpensive to change an oil filter, why take the chance.

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[lowmpg]

Interesting to see a filter used that long. I'm not super surprised as this isn't 1990 so I would expect the materials are better at their jobs. The historic thinking that oil needs changed at 3-5k in 2021 has always surprised me, probably comes from the same folks that say things like "they should teach cursive in schools". Technology has clearly moved on and manf have money to make by requiring maintenance sooner than necessary - who is the consumer to know any better? And considering manfs only stay behind their products for a few years before they tell you the problems are your problems, I'm not so certain on their required intervals.

Remember the person telling you the service times makes money when you bring it in one way or the other.

Personally I probably wouldn't take my motor to 20k, but I'd take it to 7500-10000.

 

[DanW]

Same here. Although you could probably ignore your mileage, and just go with the 50% of life oil indicator. That "calculation" is actually just an hour meter, a much more reliable indicator of when to change your oil than miles.

(I figured that bit out the last oil change I did. Oil life reached 50%... at 800 miles. It made sense though, as 90% of my time in the Jeep this past summer was spent in low range, creeping along log roads and fire breaks at 15 MPH or less.)

Can't go wrong with that.

The oil life monitor actually does a bit more than count hours. It has an algorithm that includes hours, engine revolutions, cold starts, and possibly more, such as time at full operating temperature.

You also can't go wrong using it to zero.

I don't think OP is trying to persuade anyone to do what he's doing. Only to show it can be safely done. Some may be forgetting he's putting fresh oil in at 5k, and a very high quality one, at that.

He's going nowhere near as severe as Fram routinely tests these things. That said, I ain't gonna run one that long unless forced by supply chain issues. (No worry because I have a stash of filters).

However, have zero doubts about the health of his engine. Even at 20k I'd bet he's getting better filtration than most other filters when new.

We're going to get some helpful data on it soon.

 

[roaniecowpony]

I have no doubt the Fram line of Ultra filters is worthy in general. I do have doubts about the particular filter shown with twists and partially collapsed pleats. It's impossible to tell how much filtration area and volume of debris capability is lost to the distortion, but it is a loss. It's also an assumption to believe that filter was giving good filtration without knowing if the bypass was reaching its limits and allowing even a partial bypass. The only way to know that answer is to instrument the bypass valve and record all events of byposs with that particular 20k twisted filter.

It would be interesting to know if an unmodified Pentastar ever bypasses during any operation within its limits. For example; I have a little trip from my house to where I walk my dog. It's only a couple miles. If I start the engine and drive right away, the oil temperature never reaches operating stabile temperature on this trip. Yet the engine rpm has to go to about 4.5k to climb the hill at about 45mph. The oil is cool, the oil pressures are high, the flowrates are high. If I have a new filter, is it bypassing? How about a 20k filter? I don't have those answers. But I'm not going to loose sleep over it. I'll put in a new filter each oil change and try to sleep well. Although it's tough to get a good night's sleep when it seems too many people in our capitol are sleeping too much. That's something to really worry about.

 

[The Last Cowboy]

The twists you see in cartridge filters is due to them being slightly torqued when the cap is put on the filter housing. Almost every filter removed from a 3.6 will look like that.

 

[DanW]

I have no doubt the Fram line of Ultra filters is worthy in general. I do have doubts about the particular filter shown with twists and partially collapsed pleats. It's impossible to tell how much filtration area and volume of debris capability is lost to the distortion, but it is a loss. It's also an assumption to believe that filter was giving good filtration without knowing if the bypass was reaching its limits and allowing even a partial bypass. The only way to know that answer is to instrument the bypass valve and record all events of byposs with that particular 20k twisted filter.

It would be interesting to know if an unmodified Pentastar ever bypasses during any operation within its limits. For example; I have a little trip from my house to where I walk my dog. It's only a couple miles. If I start the engine and drive right away, the oil temperature never reaches operating stabile temperature on this trip. Yet the engine rpm has to go to about 4.5k to climb the hill at about 45mph. The oil is cool, the oil pressures are high, the flowrates are high. If I have a new filter, is it bypassing? How about a 20k filter? I don't have those answers. But I'm not going to loose sleep over it. I'll put in a new filter each oil change and try to sleep well. Although it's tough to get a good night's sleep when it seems too many people in our capitol are sleeping too much. That's something to really worry about.

@The Last Cowboy is right. The twist is humorously referred to as "the Pentastar twist" by the engineers who designed the engine. In fact, If you ever pull one out even after 2k miles and it doesn't have the Pentastar twist, you are either lucky or the filter may be off on its tolerances for length. They spent a great deal of effort to determine if it was a problem and the conclusion was that it causes no issue. The original Mopar filter in mine that came from the factory had significant twist, as did the one that just came out of my wife's 2021 JLUR at 4600 miles. Every Mobil 1 and Fram I've run, from 5k to 8k miles has had twist, with several every bit as much as the one @CarbonSteel had. If anything, the Fram would handle it better with the massive strength of the pleats.

I'll ask my friend who was on the original Pentastar design team about when the Pentastar might go into bypass. I'm pretty sure I remember him once telling me it likely almost never would go to bypass unless the filter was clogged up, but I'm not 100% sure. It was a long time ago when we talked about filters. Even when cold, most 0w20 oils will flow well enough to avoid triggering the bypass valve. I'm not sure, though, so I'll ask again. But the twist is normal and should cause no worry for anyone.

Anyone wanting an outstanding filter that outperforms most other premium filters and is CHEAP, should look at the Fram Extra Guard. It is 95% at 20 microns. For a couple bucks more the Fram Tough Guard is 99% at 2o microns. The Ultra is 99+% at 20. What's really great is that the Ultra is at something like 95% at 10 microns. I've seen no other premium filter even dare to publish where they are with particles that small. Of course the Mopar and others that even just barely meet factory specs will do just fine, too. As I've always said, Pentastars are easy on oil. You can run cheap oil and filters using the OLM to guide changes and the darned thing should easily hit 300k miles.

I mostly change every 5k, but will likely run 2 changes on every Ultra.

Here is another reason to consider fewer filter changes. On the previous generation Pentastars, the plastic filter housing can crack over time. It is a very common problem. It then leaks oil into the valley between the cylinder heads, ultimately dripping down the back of the engine and looking like a rear main seal leak. There are plenty of folks who wound up paying for a rear main seal that was not leaking, due to the tech not doing the job well and realizing it was coming from above. It is believed to be caused by people over-tightening the filter cap, which is supposed to be only tightened to 18ft lbs of torque. Fewer times tightening that cap over the life of the engine means less risk of the leak. Just something to ponder. That's really the prime reason I'm on my second 5k run on a Fram in my JLUR. My next change is coming soon and I'll do a UOA. My bet is that I get the same 0.2% insolubles count as I normally get with one run on the Fram.

I will note that I have not heard of a PUG (JL generation) Pentastar showing this filter housing cracking issue. But they are still young and the housing design and materials look to be very similar. Almost exact, even though they have a different part number. Dorman makes a metal replacement housing to solve the problem in the previous gen Pentastar. They don't have one yet for the PUG in our JL's. You can bet they will if that problem shows up on them, though.

 

[lowmpg]

The twists you see in cartridge filters is due to them being slightly torqued when the cap is put on the filter housing. Almost every filter removed from a 3.6 will look like that.

Hmm? Not when I do mine, I've never had a filter look like that...go easier on the torque kids.

 

[DanW]

Hmm? Not when I do mine, I've never had a filter look like that...go easier on the torque kids.

Or you might go tighter. 18 ft. lbs is the spec. But if you aren't getting any seepage, its probably perfectly fine.

What filter are you using? There are variances among the brands. You may be using one that doesn't do it even at the specified torque setting. It'd be nice to know which ones tend not to do that.

 

[CarbonSteel]

The twists you see in cartridge filters is due to them being slightly torqued when the cap is put on the filter housing. Almost every filter removed from a 3.6 will look like that.

I tried a number of brands and they ALL do it. I use an inch-pound torque wrench when I tighten mine so I know that it is not being overtorqued as well as pre-lubing both o-rings. It's just the nature of the beast with a cartridge filter (at least FCA's design).

 

[Old Dogger]

Mine gets changed every 3k to 5k miles. Mopar oil filter. But, everybody to their own...

 

[CarbonSteel]

Anyone wanting an outstanding filter that outperforms most other premium filters and is CHEAP, should look at the Fram Extra Guard. It is 95% at 20 microns. For a couple bucks more the Fram Tough Guard is 99% at 2o microns. The Ultra is 99+% at 20. What's really great is that the Ultra is at something like 95% at 10 microns. I've seen no other premium filter even dare to publish where they are with particles that small. Of course the Mopar and others that even just barely meet factory specs will do just fine, too. As I've always said, Pentastars are easy on oil. You can run cheap oil and filters using the OLM to guide changes and the darned thing should easily hit 300k miles.

Quite right--many filter companies do not list their efficiency ratings and there are some that everyone believes to be a "great filter" (such as WIX) which do not have great efficiency ratings (95% @ 40um at the last time that someone could get them to respond with an answer) as compared to other filters. Other filter companies do not use standardized tests or list the test standard (such as ISO4548-12) that was used to obtain the efficiency rating so it can be very difficult to compare and contrast filters.

 

[VNT]

I marked with dab of paint, the housing and where the cover meet when it was factory.

I use an inch lb TQ wrench at 18 ft lbs and make sure when I change the filter I dont go past where the marks align. And all the filters, even the factory were twisted a tad.

I also use the Fram Ultra and do 10k on the filter and 2 changes, plus I have a bunch of Mobil 1 filters I got for 1$ each to use.

I do agree, the fewer times the housing is tweaked the less likely there could be an issue down the road.

 

[CarbonSteel]

I marked with dab of paint, the housing and where the cover meet when it was factory.

I use an inch lb TQ wrench at 18 ft lbs and make sure when I change the filter I dont go past where the marks align. And all the filters, even the factory were twisted a tad.

I also use the Fram Ultra and do 10k on the filter and 2 changes, plus I have a bunch of Mobil 1 filters I got for 1$ each to use.

I do agree, the fewer times the housing is tweaked the less likely there could be an issue down the road.

Fully agree which is another reason I do multiple OCs on a single filter. Jeep (pre-FCA) should have adopted the Mercedes filter housing/oil cooler design. Both my AMG and C300 had full aluminum housings integrated into the cooler. The only thing that could break/crack was the oil filter cap. FCA's continuation of the original design is lame as hell.

 

[lowmpg]

Or you might go tighter. 18 ft. lbs is the spec. But if you aren't getting any seepage, its probably perfectly fine.

What filter are you using? There are variances among the brands. You may be using one that doesn't do it even at the specified torque setting. It'd be nice to know which ones tend not to do that.

I run the factory Mopar filter.

 

[DanW]

Quite right--many filter companies do not list their efficiency ratings and there are some that everyone believes to be a "great filter" (such as WIX) which do not have great efficiency ratings (95% @ 40um at the last time that someone could get them to respond with an answer) as compared to other filters. Other filter companies do not use standardized tests or list the test standard (such as ISO4548-12) that was used to obtain the efficiency rating so it can be very difficult to compare and contrast filters.

Wix told me that exact number about a year ago. I was shocked because I and so many others regarded them as one of the best. And of course, I believe they make Napa, which are also highly regarded.

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