Death Wobble

[brconflict]

But a stabilizer doesn't solve the problem it masks it. Hiding something behind a band aid and fixing it are completely different. I don't know about you, but I prefer other people I am on the road with to have functional steering.

If you need a band aid in the interim until you can fix the actually problem that is one thing, but just ignoring the actual problem with a band aid over and over is terrible advice. Especially since it will only ever get worse.

Have we identified exactly what the problem is in every case, and is it the same cause and resolution?

Sponsored

 

[yokramer]

Have we identified exactly what the problem is in every case, and is it the same cause and resolution?

we have identified that the cause is never the stabilizer.

 

[brconflict]

we have identified that the cause is never the stabilizer.

Correct. I agree. I've heard it has a lot more to do with a straight front axle.

 

[HHGadget]

My humble opinion….
Retorque the entire suspension system front and back of the Jeep first.
More than once i have found components that had loosened over time.
This also has the advantage of allowing a closer inspection of each part while checking torque.
I agree that ball joints and steering box issues tend to be the common fault but shotgunning parts can be an expensive way to deal with an issue without a close inspection and torquing first.

 

[Terrymo]

I only had what I’ll call bump shimmy because it was annoying but it didn’t feel like parts were about to leave the chat. With very low miles I got good advice from @roaniecowpony and replaced the front track bar first. Then…wait for it…I test drove it with no front stabilizer so I would know if it was really fixed. Then I put the stabilizer back on.

 

[gek]

Have we identified exactly what the problem is in every case, and is it the same cause and resolution?

There are many things it could be, ball joints, track bar, drag link, steering box, .. etc and it may be a combination of them or mixed with other things like bad caster, still no excuse to hide it and not fix it correctly.

All SFA vehicles are prone to death wobble, but a stabilizer is a nice to have component. It is not required. Many larger SFA vehicles don't even come with them. If everything on your front end is in good functional condition you don't need a stabilizer. That isn't to say I'm going to take mine off, it is nice to have, but if I had death wobble and removed it I would still have death wobble, because something was wrong.

I realize steering parts can be expensive, but in terms of safety it is worth it to spend more than just a quick "fix", and advocating for that is basically encouraging someone to drive around with bad steering that increases the chances of causing others and/or themselves harm.

 

[gek]

My humble opinion….
Retorque the entire suspension system front and back of the Jeep first.
More than once i have found components that had loosened over time.
This also has the advantage of allowing a closer inspection of each part while checking torque.
I agree that ball joints and steering box issues tend to be the common fault but shotgunning parts can be an expensive way to deal with an issue without a close inspection and torquing first.

Torque specs are not always great. For over a year I kept hearing a clunk when offroading. I retorqued and marked everything many times. Had people jump on it while I looked moves things around, loosened then retorqued, still there. I ended up putting a gopro under there and watching everything.

It turns out it was my track bar frame side was still moving under tension. I over torqued it by 10 lbs and it stopped. If I hadn't found it it easily could have wallowed out the hole and help cause DW.

 

[brconflict]

There are many things it could be, ball joints, track bar, drag link, steering box, .. etc and it may be a combination of them or mixed with other things like bad caster, still no excuse to hide it and not fix it correctly.

All SFA vehicles are prone to death wobble, but a stabilizer is a nice to have component. It is not required. Many larger SFA vehicles don't even come with them. If everything on your front end is in good functional condition you don't need a stabilizer. That isn't to say I'm going to take mine off, it is nice to have, but if I had death wobble and removed it I would still have death wobble, because something was wrong.

I realize steering parts can be expensive, but in terms of safety it is worth it to spend more than just a quick "fix", and advocating for that is basically encouraging someone to drive around with bad steering that increases the chances of causing others and/or themselves harm.

See, I do agree with this. I'd love to know exactly what the root cause is and address that directly. But I'm not going to guess at it at great expense, and possibly gain nothing but a potentially voided warranty. If I experience the DW again, I'll replace the stabilizer, or, if still under warranty, take it back to the dealer to address it again.

However, we need to understand whether any or all of that is a core cause, or just different parts used over time. For example, I do understand the gear box issue has been fixed in newest models. Previous models might in fact benefit from replacing that. Is that a recall? Who knows whether it was a bad part or abuse over 50k miles?

When you say "hide it and not fix it", the business logic needs to be considered here:
Getting rid of the straight axle is probably the single, most reliable way to fix death wobble and forever. But Jeep knows doing this will ruin the effective benefit of owning and off-roading in a Jeep with a straight, lockable front axle. So, what I'm asking is, barring the company nixxing the straight front axle, exactly what else is the root cause?

In my case, the stabilizer addressed the problem, and I've gone more than twice the miles now than before with no problems. I have also checked the front end of my Wrangler for any looseness or other issues and found nothing wrong. I asked the dealer to review the front end as well—not that they're experts.

Nevertheless, I think the root cause is the buyer vs. the seller. I'm sure Jeep would prefer nobody experience such a serious safety hazard. So, it's in their interest to root it out and fix it long-term in design or repair. Still, I would think Jeep would tell you that ditching the straight front axle is the only sure-fire way to permanently solve death wobble. If that's what they told you, then would you be willing to let them install a new front end that didn't have the same long-loved off-road benefits?

 

[yokramer]

See, I do agree with this. I'd love to know exactly what the root cause is and address that directly. But I'm not going to guess at it at great expense, and possibly gain nothing but a potentially voided warranty. If I experience the DW again, I'll replace the stabilizer, or, if still under warranty, take it back to the dealer to address it again.

However, we need to understand whether any or all of that is a core cause, or just different parts used over time. For example, I do understand the gear box issue has been fixed in newest models. Previous models might in fact benefit from replacing that. Is that a recall? Who knows whether it was a bad part or abuse over 50k miles?

When you say "hide it and not fix it", the business logic needs to be considered here:
Getting rid of the straight axle is probably the single, most reliable way to fix death wobble and forever. But Jeep knows doing this will ruin the effective benefit of owning and off-roading in a Jeep with a straight, lockable front axle. So, what I'm asking is, barring the company nixxing the straight front axle, exactly what else is the root cause?

In my case, the stabilizer addressed the problem, and I've gone more than twice the miles now than before with no problems. I have also checked the front end of my Wrangler for any looseness or other issues and found nothing wrong. I asked the dealer to review the front end as well—not that they're experts.

Nevertheless, I think the root cause is the buyer vs. the seller. I'm sure Jeep would prefer nobody experience such a serious safety hazard. So, it's in their interest to root it out and fix it long-term in design or repair. Still, I would think Jeep would tell you that ditching the straight front axle is the only sure-fire way to permanently solve death wobble. If that's what they told you, then would you be willing to let them install a new front end that didn't have the same long-loved off-road benefits?

We already know what causes death wobble, there is no need to get to any "root cause". It is caused by worn steering components, be they drag/toe links, ball joints, or steering boxes, theres a small chance it can be track bar related. So do the due diligence to diagnose the issue and fix it. Dont just add more parts that dont fix the broken ones. There wasnt any steering stablizers on SFA vehicles for a long time and people just fixed shit when it went bad.

 

[jeepingib]

Root cause is worn, or loose components. The fix is always replacing worn components, and tightening loose ones. I ran my Jeep on the highway for a few weeks without the stabilizer after replacing ball joints just to determine that they were indeed the issue. The steering stabilizer is never a proper repair, it is a pound of concealer on an ugly face.

 

[gek]

In my case, the stabilizer addressed the problem

NO! In your case the stabilizer masked the problem, it is still there and creating a safety hazard.

Yes removing the SFA would fix death wobble issues, but that is the same as saying removing a flat tire and replacing it with a new one will fix your flat tire issues.

As has been stated many times there is no smoking gun, the issue is worn components it could one or many depending on how long you have been masking it with a stabilizer.

If you are too lazy or incapable of putting forth the effort to find the worn components, find a good shop (not a delership) or trade it in on an IFS rig, which has different problems that would be fixed by swapping to SFA.

 

[brconflict]

We already know what causes death wobble, there is no need to get to any "root cause". It is caused by worn steering components, be they drag/toe links, ball joints, or steering boxes, theres a small chance it can be track bar related. So do the due diligence to diagnose the issue and fix it. Dont just add more parts that dont fix the broken ones. There wasnt any steering stablizers on SFA vehicles for a long time and people just fixed shit when it went bad.

From what you're saying, we know more about what can allow DW, not what causes it. Maybe this is where a distinction should be made.

There wasn't steering stabilizer on on SFA vehicles that didn't experience this problem, sure. However the designs for many of those could have been drastically different. You still have to consider that the design of a Jeep isn't the same as all other vehicles.

In engineering, many problems are solved by workarounds. NASA once spent millions trying to develop a pen that writes in zero-G. The Russian astronauts used a wooden pencil.
Volkswagen Beetle in the late 60's and early 70's were air-cooled and didn't require a radiator. But, those engines also didn't produce but about 40HP. Wanting more power would require a radiator.

Jeep has a 2.0 L engine that, on its own would probably put out only 110 HP. Adding a turbo raises the power level by quite a lot, but it brings new issues, such as cooling, proper oil, and the requirement to change plugs every 60k miles. They added a separate cooling system for the turbo and recommend changing oil every 5k miles. They also tried to eliminate carbon build-up on valves by finding a workaround from using direct injection faults.

The point is, adding a stabilizer might not be to fix a root cause, but honestly, trying to keep all the other areas of wear and tear from causing DW is probably a never-ending battle. It might be the only reasonable fix for a design that buyers won't allow them to change.

 

[brconflict]

NO! In your case the stabilizer masked the problem, it is still there and creating a safety hazard.

Yes removing the SFA would fix death wobble issues, but that is the same as saying removing a flat tire and replacing it with a new one will fix your flat tire issues.

As has been stated many times there is no smoking gun, the issue is worn components it could one or many depending on how long you have been masking it with a stabilizer.

If you are too lazy or incapable of putting forth the effort to find the worn components, find a good shop (not a delership) or trade it in on an IFS rig, which has different problems that would be fixed by swapping to SFA.

 

[gek]

From what you're saying, we know more about what can allow DW, not what causes it. Maybe this is where a distinction should be made.

There wasn't steering stabilizer on on SFA vehicles that didn't experience this problem, sure. However the designs for many of those could have been drastically different. You still have to consider that the design of a Jeep isn't the same as all other vehicles.

In engineering, many problems are solved by workarounds. NASA once spent millions trying to develop a pen that writes in zero-G. The Russian astronauts used a wooden pencil.
Volkswagen Beetle in the late 60's and early 70's were air-cooled and didn't require a radiator. But, those engines also didn't produce but about 40HP. Wanting more power would require a radiator.

Jeep has a 2.0 L engine that, on its own would probably put out only 110 HP. Adding a turbo raises the power level by quite a lot, but it brings new issues, such as cooling, proper oil, and the requirement to change plugs every 60k miles. They added a separate cooling system for the turbo and recommend changing oil every 5k miles. They also tried to eliminate carbon build-up on valves by finding a workaround from using direct injection faults.

The point is, adding a stabilizer might not be to fix a root cause, but honestly, trying to keep all the other areas of wear and tear from causing DW is probably a never-ending battle. It might be the only reasonable fix for a design that buyers won't allow them to change.

The cause is oscillations brought on by worn components triggered by bumps in the road.

The stabilizer does not stop components from wearing out it is just a shock to limit oscillations, that can sometimes be caused by worn components.

no matter what components are still worn and will only wear out more and more will wear out faster if you don't fix it correctly in the beginning.

 

[brconflict]

No, there is no smoking gun, which is precisely why Jeep is not going to easily engineer a permanent fix, nor every dealer know exactly why we get DW. So, what would you suggest they do to fix this permanently for all those who love Jeeps for what they're designed to do?

Sponsored