2024 4xe is disappointing... gets no range increase

[sdiver68]

If you read with comprehension, they all admit the grid and generation needs to be expanded and upgraded over several decades. Their words. We cannot "switch over" to all EVs in 10 years. Just do the math on current (no pun intended) total Twhr capability and current use. We are using 95% of what the generative capacity is at the present time.

Keeping latching onto your extreme case while EV's continue to grow market share. Perhaps you should go off the grid since it can't handle it? Or better yet, open several powerplants and watch money grow on trees of the extreme demand.

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[JeepViking13]

I would argue that most people could Painlessly switch to a full EV right now. Almost every commuter I know drives less than 200mi/day and could easily charge their commuter car at home over night. Few people take 600+ mile road trips that would require multiple charge stops anymore and of those of us that do I’d bet it’s extremely rare that many do so more than a few times a year. We road-tripped my buddies model 3 from Fort Collins to CA and back and never had to charge for more than 22 minutes aside from the over night at the hotel. Most fuel stops take that long in reality if you aren’t 1 of those assholes that parks at the pump and then goes inside for snacks and to hit the restroom. 5 minutes fueling, park, go inside, before you know it you’ve been at the gas station a good 20 minutes anyway. Fast charging doesn’t take all that much longer and after 200-250 miles I relish getting out of the car for a bit anyway. If they build a wrangler EV with at least a 350 mile range I’ll trade the 2022 in no problem.

The problem is talking about full EVs is straying off topic. We are talking about the 4xe which only gets 21 miles on full electric. You're definitely stuck to your local area with that. You aren't traveling full electric with the 4xe. Also if the government wants EVs to work and get more people on-board they need to stop letting electricity prices go up. My electric bill per month almost Trippled in the past 5 years. It's out of control. At least in my area anyway. My last bill was just a hair under $800 for the month. And then I'm gonna go hook up a car to it to charge???

 

[Bmeister]

Keeping latching onto your extreme case while EV's continue to grow market share. Perhaps you should go off the grid since it can't handle it? Or better yet, open several powerplants and watch money grow on trees of the extreme demand.

What is my "extreme case"? It's just basic math and reality. The entire USA can only generate 1.1 Tw of energy at one time (1.4 Tw part time when solar and wind arrays are at 99.9%) if all powerplants are up and running full output. That's aggregate capacity for the USA (2021-2022 data per US govt).

Please use math and demonstrate my "extreme" case. If ALL vehicles in the US went electric right now (282 million) and ONLY 5% (~14million vehs) decided to plug into a Level-3 fast charger simultaneously, that instant demand would be over 1Tw of instant-demand electricity (almost all of our current capability). That is a very realistic probability and that means we would need at minimum double the power generation capacity we have now (or shut off all other electrical use when that happens). Without more generation capacity, there would be the mother of all blackouts.

Given range anxiety and no new battery tech in sight for a couple decades, that is a very realistic consideration for power plant operators for which to plan. Basic math. Not remotely "extreme" at all.

This is why PHEV work for now, IMHO, and why the 4xe is an excellent option.

 

[roaniecowpony]

As with most new technology, early adopters blaze the trail, and pay the premium. I'm old school. I don't want to be the early adopter. From what I can see, I think the whole product line of hybrids and EVs is immature and most of these vehicles are going to be as short lived as the next better version that comes out. I'm all for cleaner air, but this isn't a 100% emissions vs 0% emissions debate, when you put the manufacturining and power generation into the mix. So, there's a certain economy in continuing to drive a current ICE vehicle you own.

 

[sdiver68]

What is my "extreme case"? It's just basic math and reality. The entire USA can only generate 1.1 Tw of energy at one time (1.4 Tw part time when solar and wind arrays are at 99.9%) if all powerplants are up and running full output. That's aggregate capacity for the USA (2021-2022 data per US govt).

Please use math and demonstrate my "extreme" case. If ALL vehicles in the US went electric right now (282 million) and ONLY 5% (~14million vehs) decided to plug into a Level-3 fast charger simultaneously, that instant demand would be over 1Tw of instant-demand electricity (almost all of our current capability). That is a very realistic probability and that means we would need at minimum double the power generation capacity we have now (or shut off all other electrical use when that happens). Without more generation capacity, there would be the mother of all blackouts.

Given range anxiety and no new battery tech in sight for a couple decades, that is a very realistic consideration for power plant operators for which to plan. Basic math. Not remotely "extreme" at all.

This is why PHEV work for now, IMHO, and why the 4xe is an excellent option.

Basic math? Why would I use "basic math" when your straw man building assumptions are fatally flawed? You have some major GIGO problems with your basic math.

If ALL vehicles in the US went electric right now (282 million) If ALL vehicles in the US went electric right now (282 million) and ONLY 5% (~14million vehs) decided to plug into a Level-3 fast charger

It will take at least 15 years for this to happen. Of course it never would because controls are put in place to prevent such a scenario.

The other 95% EV's not drawing a charge..they can contribute electricity back to the grid or used locally to retain grid capacity. In fact, the plan is for exactly this to happen at REALISTIC levels of EV adoption and technologies. EV's become part of the solution, NOT the problem.

As an aside, I LOL'd at everyone using Level 3 chargers when current Level 2 charger adoption is a fraction of EV's sold.

Given range anxiety and no new battery tech in sight for a couple decades, that is a very realistic consideration for power plant operators for which to plan.

First, major advances in battery tech are already in the pipeline. So another straw man.

Yes, power plant operators would love for you to believe this is a "realistic" scenario so they can reap the benefits of enhanced government subsidies and emergency approved rate hikes. For that matter, I have a decent amount in defensive VPU right now so personally would benefit if this were the case.

Of course we as a society should absolutely be investing in greener power generation and enhanced grid resiliency. And I'll even agree with you that right now, there is a compelling case to be made for hybrids, just ask Toyota. And 1 step further, in certain areas of the country where inaction, interference and/or incompetence have already historically caused grid problems more urgent action needs to be taken.

But what I will disagree with you on is using very unrealistic scenarios to scare people into believing EV's are a net problem based on grid capacity.

 

[Zandcwhite]

The problem is talking about full EVs is straying off topic. We are talking about the 4xe which only gets 21 miles on full electric. You're definitely stuck to your local area with that. You aren't traveling full electric with the 4xe. Also if the government wants EVs to work and get more people on-board they need to stop letting electricity prices go up. My electric bill per month almost Trippled in the past 5 years. It's out of control. At least in my area anyway. My last bill was just a hair under $800 for the month. And then I'm gonna go hook up a car to it to charge???

The 4xe is best of both worlds with current tech. You CAN charge it and do your daily errands or short commute without burning gas, but you don't have to ever actually plug it in. You can just run it like a typical hybrid before they added the plug in options. Guess how a traditional prius charged its batteries before they added the plug in version? Regenerative braking only. We pretty much all go down hill, stop, and or coast at times. That will still add some charge to the batteries. That will still allow you to use the extra torque of the electric motor. In e-save mode you could charge the batteries by driving to the trail head and then run in electric mode without having ever plugged in. Would that be the most efficient use of the tech? Of course not, but with the tax credit they effectively gave it to you so you still wouldn't be losing anything. As far as the government "letting" rates go up, their involvement only makes prices worse and service goes down while they are at it. The government shouldn't be meddling in free markets period. The day I decide to buy an EV will be the day solar goes on the house as well. Unlike gas, you can easily control your own electric rates.

 

[Turaven]

As with most new technology, early adopters blaze the trail, and pay the premium. I'm old school. I don't want to be the early adopter. From what I can see, I think the whole product line of hybrids and EVs is immature and most of these vehicles are going to be as short lived as the next better version that comes out.

EVs and hybrids aren't new technology. EV technology is almost 200 years old. Modern, viable EVs back to the 90's. Toyota has been pumping out dead-reliable hybrids since the 90's. The only real "early adopter tax" was buying a half-baked California compliance EV from 10 years ago

 

[JeepViking13]

The 4xe is best of both worlds with current tech. You CAN charge it and do your daily errands or short commute without burning gas, but you don't have to ever actually plug it in. You can just run it like a typical hybrid before they added the plug in options. Guess how a traditional prius charged its batteries before they added the plug in version? Regenerative braking only. We pretty much all go down hill, stop, and or coast at times. That will still add some charge to the batteries. That will still allow you to use the extra torque of the electric motor. In e-save mode you could charge the batteries by driving to the trail head and then run in electric mode without having ever plugged in. Would that be the most efficient use of the tech? Of course not, but with the tax credit they effectively gave it to you so you still wouldn't be losing anything. As far as the government "letting" rates go up, their involvement only makes prices worse and service goes down while they are at it. The government shouldn't be meddling in free markets period. The day I decide to buy an EV will be the day solar goes on the house as well. Unlike gas, you can easily control your own electric rates.

I guess it depends where you live as I said before. Living out in the country I live 20 miles or more from literally everywhere I have to go. What is 21 miles full electric going to do for me? I need at least 50 to make it worthwhile. And I get the 4xe is PHEV but on hybrid mode it doesn't get super impressive MPGs compared to other hybrid vehicles. Most people get like what 26 MPG? That's not much more then my ICE 2.0T Willys XR on 35s. I average around 20.5 MPG.

And from what I've seen you don't get the $7500 tax credit with the new rules. It's more like $3500.

 

[Zandcwhite]

I guess it depends where you live as I said before. Living out in the country I live 20 miles or more from literally everywhere I have to go. What is 21 miles full electric going to do for me? I need at least 50 to make it worthwhile. And I get the 4xe is PHEV but on hybrid mode it doesn't get super impressive MPGs compared to other hybrid vehicles. Most people get like what 26 MPG? That's not much more then my ICE 2.0T Willys XR on 35s. I average around 20.5 MPG.

And from what I've seen you don't get the $7500 tax credit with the new rules. It's more like $3500.

26 mpg isn't a huge savings over 20, but if your average trip is 50 miles, the 1st 40% would burn no fuel in your use case. Even if you don't drive a lot, say 1,000 miles per month via 20 of these trips. That's 400 miles burning no fuel and 600 at 26mpg vs 1,000 miles at 20.5mpg. That's 23 gallons of fuel per month vs 48. You'd literally save 60% on fuel even in your use case. Add solar on the house and that is not only free fuel but you could likely cut your electric bill by 75%. It's a multi-layered difference that typically the anti-EV side fails to look at the big picture. Again, I didn't buy one and I'm not arguing it's the be-all end-all for every use case, but it's far more versatile and usable than you'd think.

 

[sdiver68]

26 mpg isn't a huge savings over 20, but if your average trip is 50 miles, the 1st 40% would burn no fuel in your use case. Even if you don't drive a lot, say 1,000 miles per month via 20 of these trips. That's 400 miles burning no fuel and 600 at 26mpg vs 1,000 miles at 20.5mpg. That's 23 gallons of fuel per month vs 48. You'd literally save 60% on fuel even in your use case. Add solar on the house and that is not only free fuel but you could likely cut your electric bill by 75%. It's a multi-layered difference that typically the anti-EV side fails to look at the big picture. Again, I didn't buy one and I'm not arguing it's the be-all end-all for every use case, but it's far more versatile and usable than you'd think.

1) There might be better ways to use the available battery and 2) Solar is not very cost or even environmentally effective in the Northeast

I'm not anti-EV at all (obviously look at my vehicle profile) but solving for any individual's use case involves looking at multiple variables.

 

[JeepViking13]

26 mpg isn't a huge savings over 20, but if your average trip is 50 miles, the 1st 40% would burn no fuel in your use case. Even if you don't drive a lot, say 1,000 miles per month via 20 of these trips. That's 400 miles burning no fuel and 600 at 26mpg vs 1,000 miles at 20.5mpg. That's 23 gallons of fuel per month vs 48. You'd literally save 60% on fuel even in your use case. Add solar on the house and that is not only free fuel but you could likely cut your electric bill by 75%. It's a multi-layered difference that typically the anti-EV side fails to look at the big picture. Again, I didn't buy one and I'm not arguing it's the be-all end-all for every use case, but it's far more versatile and usable than you'd think.

I'm definitely not debating against the 4xe I'm just playing devils advocate and thinking out loud trying to make sense of it for my use.

Don't forget the 4xe is more expensive then the standard Jeep Wrangler and Solar powers initial cost isn't cheap either. So you're paying more money up front to save money. Especially if you get an installer that destroys your roof while installing. I looked into solar a couple years ago and when I read the reviews of multiple different companies there was a lot of complaints of their roofs getting messed up and people having water problems. Not good. Cost a lot of money to fix. And then your home owners insurance goes up. Plus I live in the Northeast on the north side of a mountain. Don't think solar would work out for me.

And then with the 4xe let's not forget that the battery eventually degrades after charging so many times and years go by. Some reported it sooner then they expected. How much does a battery replacement cost? Everything factors in. Do you really save alot of money in the end to make it worth it?

 

[roaniecowpony]

I'm definitely not debating against the 4xe I'm just playing devils advocate and thinking out loud trying to make sense of it for my use.

Don't forget the 4xe is more expensive then the standard Jeep Wrangler and Solar powers initial cost isn't cheap either. So you're paying more money up front to save money. Especially if you get an installer that destroys your roof while installing. I looked into solar a couple years ago and when I read the reviews of multiple different companies there was a lot of complaints of their roofs getting messed up and people having water problems. Not good. Cost a lot of money to fix. And then your home owners insurance goes up. Plus I live in the Northeast on the north side of a mountain. Don't think solar would work out for me.

And then with the 4xe let's not forget that the battery eventually degrades after charging so many times and years go by. Some reported it sooner then they expected. How much does a battery replacement cost? Everything factors in. Do you really save alot of money in the end to make it worth it?

No. But it makes some people feel good.

 

[Bleda2002]

And then with the 4xe let's not forget that the battery eventually degrades after charging so many times and years go by. Some reported it sooner then they expected. How much does a battery replacement cost? Everything factors in. Do you really save alot of money in the end to make it worth it?

That's a question only you can answer based on your gas prices/usage and also how much value you place in having the equivalent of a 5.7 Hemi under the head instead of a 3.6 or 2.0. For us it was a no brainer, 7500 credit made it cheaper than a similarly equipped straight gasser so we were already ahead with a better power train for the same money.

Gas savings a month is 180 bucks a month for us so ~2K a year including electrical costs. 10 year battery warranty so any issues in 10 years or 100K is covered, I cant find the cost of a 4xe specifically, but the pacifica hybrid (using the same system) is 12,500 to replace currently and should last 10+ years per battery. Assumming you get the 10 years out of it and the replacement cost doesnt significantly come down (which it will) we were still way ahead at the end of 10 years AND we have v8 power.

 

[JeepViking13]

That's a question only you can answer based on your gas prices/usage and also how much value you place in having the equivalent of a 5.7 Hemi under the head instead of a 3.6 or 2.0. For us it was a no brainer, 7500 credit made it cheaper than a similarly equipped straight gasser so we were already ahead with a better power train for the same money.

Gas savings a month is 180 bucks a month for us so ~2K a year including electrical costs. 10 year battery warranty so any issues in 10 years or 100K is covered, I cant find the cost of a 4xe specifically, but the pacifica hybrid (using the same system) is 12,500 to replace currently and should last 10+ years per battery. Assumming you get the 10 years out of it and the replacement cost doesnt significantly come down (which it will) we were still way ahead at the end of 10 years AND we have v8 power.

Pretty sure the warranty on battery is only 8 years now. And the tax credit is a measly $3,500.

Also there's other ways of getting V8 power under the hood besides and electric back pack traded on. Like turbos. Which are cheaper to replace then an electric battery. My 2.7 V6 twin turbo Bronco makes V8 power as well. And Jeep is also heading in that direction with the new 3.0 V6 turbo. Most likely to be available in the Wrangler in 2025.

I just don't know in reality if the initial costs up front and down the road with battery replacement would equate to actually saving money.

 

[Bleda2002]

Pretty sure the warranty on battery is only 8 years now. And the tax credit is a measly $3,500.

Also there's other ways of getting V8 power under the hood besides and electric back pack traded on. Like turbos. Which are cheaper to replace then an electric battery. My 2.7 V6 twin turbo Bronco makes V8 power as well. And Jeep is also heading in that direction with the new 3.0 V6 turbo. Most likely to be available in the Wrangler in 2025.

I just don't know in reality if the initial costs up front and down the road with battery replacement would equate to actually saving money.

I just proved it saves money. Even with a 10 year battery replacement I'm still ahead 10k+ by the time it happens or 6k with the new tax credit.

There is no other way to get V8 power in a wrangler unless you spend 20k so saying your bronco has V8 power (still significantly less power than the 4xe and worse fuel mileage) is a moot point. As is the assumption that jeep will put the i6 in the wrangler and even if they do unless they only charge you 4k it still costs you more for worse mpgs and a gain of ~45 hp for the standard output.

Turbos btw are ~2500 bucks a pop assuming no other damage and also have a service life similar to the battery pack so that's 5k down the line in expected maintenance which also eats away at the price difference. The 4xe also has turbos but it also doesn't use them as often so the life expectancy will be longer.

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