Will the BEV J70 be scrapped?

[Zandcwhite]

The only thing wrong with mentioning a non plug in hybrid around here is Jeep doesn't make one but they make a plug in hybrid so 4xe owners naturally diss the concept.

Because they have 0 knowledge of how they work. The 4xe does everything the same way a non-plug-in version would. Regenerative braking still happens. It still charges itself, even from <1% to 100% just by driving around in e-save mode. The charger is the only difference. Why anyone thinks they'd gain anything by removing it is beyond me. So you'd save 100lbs in a nearly 6k pounds vehicle? Does anybody think that would make the slightest change in fuel economy? Even if you never planned to plug it in there's no reason to make, but, or want a non-plug-in version. My company car is a prius PHEV... and I never plug it in.

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[BXFXJeep]

The only thing wrong with mentioning a non plug in hybrid around here is Jeep doesn't make one but they make a plug in hybrid so 4xe owners naturally diss the concept.

Actually it's quite common for Wrangler owners of all stripes to retort with, it's not a Prius when anyone mentions mpg, and if you wanted great mpg, you should have bought a Prius/Corolla etc, which makes the HEV route a non starter.

Quite a bit of Wrangler owners dislike the ASS, HEVs drags out that ASS nightmare.

 

[BXFXJeep]

Because they have 0 knowledge of how they work. The 4xe does everything the same way a non-plug-in version would. Regenerative braking still happens. It still charges itself, even from <1% to 100% just by driving around in e-save mode. The charger is the only difference. Why anyone thinks they'd gain anything by removing it is beyond me. So you'd save 100lbs in a nearly 6k pounds vehicle? Does anybody think that would make the slightest change in fuel economy? Even if you never planned to plug it in there's no reason to make, but, or want a non-plug-in version. My company car is a prius PHEV... and I never plug it in.

The battery size in the PHEV is significantly larger in a PHEV vs HEV, the gas tank is also a huge difference in size, and there is also a huge difference in overall driving range, and the difference is worse if the PHEV isn't plugged in, cargo capacity is also another difference.

The two platforms are not Interchangeable, they serve two very different purposes, a PHEV is meant for regular low mileage trips not using any gas, the HEV is for more high mileage. Both are hybrids, but serve very different purposes.

Basically buying a PHEV to use as a HEV is not a bright idea, companies will do it to get government credits, tax payer subsidies, green washing schemes etc, then they will also write off the depreciation etc, but then some poor sap will buy that garbage on the used car market, and end up with prohibitively expensive repairs.

Just look at the high mileage rental and company leased 4xe, if people know what is good for them they want to stay away from high mileage PHEVs, especially the 4xe.

Edit-----
Forgot to mention, don't charge that 4xe, and you are getting the usual 15 mpg city driving, with significantly less driving range than the 2.0/3.6, so a lot more gas station visits.

Charging does NOT make a difference on the 15 mpg, but charging allows for all electric driving, which offsets gas use, which is why PHEVs have smaller gas tanks than HEVs, it's about offsetting one fuel for another.

 

[Zandcwhite]

That's a lot of very generalized information and assumptions. If you're talking specific example like prius HEV vs prime then yes the battery in the prime is larger, but the electric motor is also significantly stronger. Assuming if Jeep offered a non-plugin 4xe they'd downsize the battery, electric motor, and upsize the gas tank is foolish. It's not a tiny car where the smaller battery allows the space for a larger fuel tank. They don't occupy the same real-estate in the Jeep. Cutting the battery and motor in half would make the non-plugin version almost identical in performance to the non-hybrid version as you'd be adding the weight without adding enough power. At that point it would be more beefed up etorque than 4xe and would be pretty much pointless.

 

[BXFXJeep]

That's a lot of very generalized information and assumptions. If you're talking specific example like prius HEV vs prime then yes the battery in the prime is larger, but the electric motor is also significantly stronger. Assuming if Jeep offered a non-plugin 4xe they'd downsize the battery, electric motor, and upsize the gas tank is foolish. It's not a tiny car where the smaller battery allows the space for a larger fuel tank. They don't occupy the same real-estate in the Jeep. Cutting the battery and motor in half would make the non-plugin version almost identical in performance to the non-hybrid version as you'd be adding the weight without adding enough power. At that point it would be more beefed up etorque than 4xe and would be pretty much pointless.

HEVs are built from the ground up to maximize efficiency, the Wrangler can never be efficient.

All that a plug in does is substitute one fuel source for another, it's basically plug and play, minimal changes are required to make an existing regular vehicle into a PHEV.

PHEVs are not meant to be used like a HEV, all it's doing is substituting one fuel type for another, in the case of the 4xe it's just as inefficient with electric as it is with gas.

 

[Zandcwhite]

HEVs are built from the ground up to maximize efficiency, the Wrangler can never be efficient.

All that a plug in does is substitute one fuel source for another, it's basically plug and play, minimal changes are required to make an existing regular vehicle into a PHEV.

PHEVs are not meant to be used like a HEV, all it's doing is substituting one fuel type for another, in the case of the 4xe it's just as inefficient with electric as it is with gas.

Kinda more generalizations but ok. The prius PHEV was one of the 1st... and there's never been a non-hybrid prius. Being it was designed 1st as an HEV are you telling me the plug in version isn't supposed to be used like the non-plugin version? It's still way more efficient than most vehicles averaging 54mpg even though I never plug it in and generally have the cruise control set at 80mph. It still accelerates much quicker than it would if you removed the electric motor. I agree that HEVs are pointless, mostly because they don't gain much over the plug-in version of the same vehicle. And efficient vehicle design will be efficient regardless of fuel source and an inefficient vehicle will be inefficient.

 

[BXFXJeep]

Kinda more generalizations but ok. The prius PHEV was one of the 1st... and there's never been a non-hybrid prius. Being it was designed 1st as an HEV are you telling me the plug in version isn't supposed to be used like the non-plugin version? It's still way more efficient than most vehicles averaging 54mpg even though I never plug it in and generally have the cruise control set at 80mph. It still accelerates much quicker than it would if you removed the electric motor. I agree that HEVs are pointless, mostly because they don't gain much over the plug-in version of the same vehicle. And efficient vehicle design will be efficient regardless of fuel source and an inefficient vehicle will be inefficient.

The Prius is an odd duck because it was made to be a HEV from the ground up, efficiency is built into it, the PHEV version gets significantly less range than the HEV version, only an idiot would buy the more costly PHEV version and not plug it in, unless they bought it for the power, but the reason companies buy it is because they can use it for green washing, it's a scam pure and simple. Just like how the rental companies rent 4xe, the vast majority of people renting a 4xe would not know anything about plugging it in, it's an utter waste of time, especially when it has significantly less range when used in that manner.

The PHEV Wrangler the 4xe still get around 15 mpg city driving, there is absolutely zero benefit to not charging the 4xe.

Like most other PHEV, when the battery range has been exhausted, the vehicle has the ability to access full power, that is it period, not mpg benefit.

Some people will argue that the 4xe is more efficient than the 2.0/3.6 because it generates a lot more power for about the same mpg, but that is altogether a different story.

HEVs and PHEVs are very different vehicles purpose built for very different applications, they are not Interchangeable.

This is why some people are buying the 4xe and getting pissed it's a gas guzzler, thinking that a PHEV is like an HEV is a very costly mistake.

Like I said, all a PHEV does is allow people to substitute one fuel type for another as they see fit, in the US especially, electricity is expensive, so there may be almost no cost on fuel savings, using electric instead of gas.

When all things considered a PHEV TCO would be significantly more than the non PHEV version, especially for the 4xe, and more so if it's not plugged in.

PHEVs should be considered more of a premium option than an economical option.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Like most other PHEV, when the battery range has been exhausted, the vehicle has the ability to access full power, that is it period, not mpg benefit.

Some people will argue that the 4xe is more efficient than the 2.0/3.6 because it generates a lot more power for about the same mpg, but that is altogether a different story.

Even if used like an HEV and never plugged in how is having significantly more power at the same mpg not a benefit? How is that not clearly a more efficient vehicle if it delivers quicker acceleration while being heavier without a loss of mpg? I'm not arguing one should buy a 4xe with the plan of never plugging it in, but you still get the benefits of power, regenerative braking saving brake pad life, the ability to run E-save mode on the way to a trail and then the unique experience of electric only silent wheeling hearing nothing but the wind in the trees and the birds chirping. We charged the 4xe rental regularly in Hawaii because there were a couple free chargers at the grocery store within walking distance of our air bnb. You get 392 torque at significantly less cost and significantly better mpg. Obviously the optimal use is to charge it regularly, but there are still several benefits even if you don't. Much like my work prius. I'd charge it at home to maximize its benefits, but it's a company vehicle with a company gas card so there's no benefit to me.

 

[Max Headroom]

Why would an EV Wrangler-type vehicle be scrapped? EVs are the perfect platform for an offroad vehicle, specially one done right - like the Rivian quad motor set up.

A quad motor EV has monstrous torque from zero RPM. Offers great throttle control. There is no need for lockers or transfer cases and each wheel has it's own motor. Ground clearance is a dream with no low hanging exhausts, no need to skid fuel tanks and transfer case. Low center of gravity with the heavy battery low and between the axles will make it super stable and less likely to flip. No spinning vibrating drive shafts.

Even a cheaper dual motor setup have many of the same benefits.

And reliability should be amazing.

Yes, range and charging times are still a pain with EVs. But that is ONE downside, among a huge list of upsides.

Lets see how the Jeep Recon is received. The "Wrangler EV" will be a step up from that.

A well implemented EV Offroader would be hugely more capable than an ICE one.

No thanks. If I'm somewhere like BFE Moab, Death Valley, Barstow, etc, I'm sticking with time proven tech, the ICE powered vehicle.
Honestly all those 'advantages' don't really mean much to me. I've been off roading in some pretty primitive vehicles and did just fine. The current crop of ICE powered off road ride are so far beyond what we used to have, there's really not much room for meaningful improvement in capability for the average driver. After all, 95% of the popular trails were made with 40 hp flathead Jeeps, and four banger IH Scouts.

 

[BXFXJeep]

Even if used like an HEV and never plugged in how is having significantly more power at the same mpg not a benefit? How is that not clearly a more efficient vehicle if it delivers quicker acceleration while being heavier without a loss of mpg? I'm not arguing one should buy a 4xe with the plan of never plugging it in, but you still get the benefits of power, regenerative braking saving brake pad life, the ability to run E-save mode on the way to a trail and then the unique experience of electric only silent wheeling hearing nothing but the wind in the trees and the birds chirping. We charged the 4xe rental regularly in Hawaii because there were a couple free chargers at the grocery store within walking distance of our air bnb. You get 392 torque at significantly less cost and significantly better mpg. Obviously the optimal use is to charge it regularly, but there are still several benefits even if you don't. Much like my work prius. I'd charge it at home to maximize its benefits, but it's a company vehicle with a company gas card so there's no benefit to me.

Like I have stated HEVs serve a completely different purpose, which is massive mpg benefits, PHEVs does not come anywhere close to this, the bottom line is a PHEV is nothing like a HEV.

People looking for mpg savings doesn't care much about power and performance.

HEV and PHEV are two very purposes, people keep conflating the two and this is misleading which cause people to make very expensive mistakes purchasing a 4xe.

It's as bad as the people that claim they are getting 30-40-50+ mpg with their 4xe and not clarifying that they are using witchcraft to come up with that nonsense.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Like I have stated HEVs serve a completely different purpose, which is massive mpg benefits, PHEVs does not come anywhere close to this, the bottom line is a PHEV is nothing like a HEV.

People looking for mpg savings doesn't care much about power and performance.

HEV and PHEV are two very purposes, people keep conflating the two and this is misleading which cause people to make very expensive mistakes purchasing a 4xe.

It's as bad as the people that claim they are getting 30-40-50+ mpg with their 4xe and not clarifying that they are using witchcraft to come up with that nonsense.

You're generalizing or assuming that every PHEV is just an ice vehicle with the added hybrid parts added. There's the prius and the volt and others that were designed around being efficient 1st. Then there's the small plug in hybrids that were efficient ICE vehicles before they added the hybrid option. Clearly those are still efficient wether HEV or PHEV. Obviously things like the 4xe are still going to be inefficient, at least until they can be powered by onboard cold fusion reactors. I think what you're trying to say is that adding hybrid tech doesn't make the vehicle more efficient but the way you're wording it is just false.

 

[BXFXJeep]

I think what you're trying to say is that adding hybrid tech doesn't make the vehicle more efficient but the way you're wording it is just false.

What is false about what I am saying?

Hybrids like the 4xe have a very expensive hybrid system to maintain, with zero mpg benefits like a HEV, vehicles like the Prius and Volt were built from the ground up to be efficient, the Prius has the highest mpge rating over EVs. Using vehicles like that in a conversation like this is misleading.

Sure you can drive a 4xe like an HEV, but people should be aware of the very expensive pitfalls of using it like like a HEV.

For example if you high mileage a 4xe driving it like a HEV, when that High Voltage warranty expires you are up the creek

People are learning that costly lesson of buying used high mileage PHEVs.

That is why people should stay away from those off lease PHEVs.

 

[Brad Hearing]

Why would an EV Wrangler-type vehicle be scrapped? EVs are the perfect platform for an offroad vehicle, specially one done right - like the Rivian quad motor set up.

I have to push back on all the EV love that is unconditional around here. lets see...

- if you kill 25% of the battery just to get to your offroad place that means you have half a battery to play with.

- nearest charging station is almost certainly back in the city and not on the corners along the highway or small towns along the way, so now you have range anxiety

- tires and suspension blow out in half the time because of all the extra weight while youre out having fun, and if something does break there is zero chance of on-site repair.



just make sure you bring a generator and a bunch of gas i guess. There is a place for EVs and being out in the middle of nowhere aint it.

 

[Zandcwhite]

What is false about what I am saying?

Hybrids like the 4xe have a very expensive hybrid system to maintain, with zero mpg benefits like a HEV, vehicles like the Prius and Volt were built from the ground up to be efficient, the Prius has the highest mpge rating over EVs. Using vehicles like that in a conversation like this is misleading.

Sure you can drive a 4xe like an HEV, but people should be aware of the very expensive pitfalls of using it like like a HEV.

For example if you high mileage a 4xe driving it like a HEV, when that High Voltage warranty expires you are up the creek

People are learning that costly lesson of buying used high mileage PHEVs.

That is why people should stay away from those off lease PHEVs.

Even the idea that the 4xe has zero mpg benefits is false. If it gets the same mpg as a standard JLU with significantly more power, quicker acceleration, etc it is clearly more efficient. Compare it to the only other Jeep with 470ftlbs of torque and it's significantly more efficient and far cheaper. The cost difference alone between the 4xe and the 392 would pay for the 1st set of batteries even if they failed at 81k miles the minute the warranty expired. The fuel savings from that 1st 80k miles would pay for the 2nd set even if you never plugged it in. That's the 1st 240k miles worth of batteries paid for even if you only bought it for the torque and never plugged it in. Again I'm not arguing that's the best way to use it, as I'm sure you're aware that finding cheap or even free L2 charging is feasible, not to mention EV charging is far cheaper at my home than gas. But assuming all PHEVs are inefficient is also flat wrong as proven by my examples. No, putting hybrid power in a suburban won't make it efficient but there are efficient PHEVs period.

 

[BXFXJeep]

Even the idea that the 4xe has zero mpg benefits is false. If it gets the same mpg as a standard JLU with significantly more power, quicker acceleration, etc it is clearly more efficient. Compare it to the only other Jeep with 470ftlbs of torque and it's significantly more efficient and far cheaper. The cost difference alone between the 4xe and the 392 would pay for the 1st set of batteries even if they failed at 81k miles the minute the warranty expired. The fuel savings from that 1st 80k miles would pay for the 2nd set even if you never plugged it in. That's the 1st 240k miles worth of batteries paid for even if you only bought it for the torque and never plugged it in. Again I'm not arguing that's the best way to use it, as I'm sure you're aware that finding cheap or even free L2 charging is feasible, not to mention EV charging is far cheaper at my home than gas. But assuming all PHEVs are inefficient is also flat wrong as proven by my examples. No, putting hybrid power in a suburban won't make it efficient but there are efficient PHEVs period.

You are under the assumption that Wrangler people are chasing massive torque, I am coming from a long line of Wranglers, power was never something I ever looked for, I'm not sure how many Wrangler people really care about power, especially when that power comes at the price of complications, and lack of service.

The 4xe powertrain cannot be fixed by independent mechanics, or owners, so don't discount the expense of dealership visits. I got one very rarely took my Wranglers back to the dealership, this 4xe so far the juice is worth the squeeze.

Power was never an issue with the 4.0 YJ or TJ or 3.8 JK, or these 3.6 JLs.

Batteries are failing quite often on these 4xe if you haven't kept up, even replacement batteries are failing, then there is the common heater failures, recalls etc,

What you are failing to realize is people that shop for efficiency, don't care about power, they are about savings at the gas pumps, which is something 4xe does not do if you don't charge it. If I was in the market for power over mpg, I would buy a 392, as it is gas cost $6 a gallon, vs electric at $0-$0.8 cents a kWh for me.

And for the most part in the US electricity cost as much as gas.

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