Winter road manners...

[Chugiakguy]

Do you get a lot of ice there, or just snow? We seem to get a 'nice' mix of the two here.

Well, back in the 1990s and 2000s, it was almost strictly snow. Which could pack down in some circumstances to ice, but really icy roads were pretty rare back then. Nowadays, it seems to get icy more often, but not every winter, and mainly due to freezing rain, which was essentially unheard of here, apparently, until around 10 or 12 years ago.

What I have found, though, more and more in recent years, is intersections in town getting very icy, due I think to two things that so many idiots are doing nowadays much more than before: 1) racing up to red lights and then slamming on their brakes, glazing the road surface in the process, and also 2) taking off (or trying to take off) excessively fast from the green lights, and ending up doing the same thing. But I think it's much more the hard braking that is doing it.

What IS it about so many idiots on the roads nowadays, who drive like a stupid 16 year-old punk who just got his first driver's license that very day?

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[Heimkehr]

I've talked to three different JL or Gladiator owners locally (Southcentral Alaska) who all have spoken quite highly of, surprisingly, the Firestone Destination M/T2s as winter tires. Not that they are as good as a truly dedicated winter tire, like Blizzaks, but very acceptable under our typical winter road conditions, and comparable to any of the better performing A/T or non-strictly-winter-dedicated tires.

That's not surprising, since the Destinations are, or at least used to be, capable of accepting studs. Maybe there's a distinction between designations in this particular tire. I used to see Willys Jeeps on my dealer's lot with studdable Destination M/Ts from the factory. Now, though, any such Jeeps that I see with the same Firestones have M/Ts that can't be studded.

Either way, good luck with your field testing. ?

 

[Chugiakguy]

That's not surprising, since the Destinations are, or at least used to be, capable of accepting studs. Maybe there's a distinction between designations in this particular tire. I used to see Willys Jeeps on my dealer's lot with studdable Destination M/Ts from the factory. Now, though, any such Jeeps that I see with the same Firestones have M/Ts that can't be studded.

Either way, good luck with your field testing. ?

Thanks Heimkehr!

And I'll let you all know my evaluation of those tires in due course.

I should maybe mention that none of those three JL or Gladiator owners had been driving on studded Destination M/T2, although I understand that they are studdable. I myself have never driven with studded tires, though.

 

[Reinen]

Don't bother thinking about history when it comes to winter tires. They've made major advances since then. To the point of making the 3PMSF symbol meaningless.

All 3PMSF certifies is that the tire has 10% better traction than a standard AT tire when accelerating in light snow. Ice isn't even tested. AT tires only barely surpass that mark. Winter tires are now approaching 130% better traction in snow and ice and far better control when skidding. It's night & day and calls for a re-assessment of the winter rating system.

As for studs the only surface they're still providing an improvement on is artificial flat ice, like an ice rink. Surprisingly, non-studded winter tires now have better traction on natural ice, like a frozen lake. Studs are detrimental to traction in dry & wet conditions. They do nothing in snow.

Bottom line, winter tire compounds have improved to the point where studs are primarily a placebo for people who don't trust the tire compound yet and no AT tire comes remotely close.

 

[Chugiakguy]

Bottom line, winter tire compounds have improved to the point where studs are primarily a placebo for people who don't trust the tire compound yet and no AT tire comes remotely close.

Reinen, I have been railing against studded tires, and those who drive with them, for as long as I've lived in Alaska (which is a long time).

As far as I'm concerned, studded tires are just a crutch (at best) for those with inappropriate tires, and usually with inappropriate winter driving skills as well. But what I find absolutely unacceptable about studded tires is the incredible, and incredibly dangerous, damage that they do to road surfaces here in Alaska. Within a year of any highway or major road repaving, the "chariot ruts" start to form in each lane, scraped away by the studs, which just then hold water and often cause drivers to hydroplane whenever it rains to any significant degree. Studded tires also rapidly scrape away highway paint, leading to incredibly poorly marked lanes and other painted road markings, which in wet conditions at night make the roads appear essentially completely unmarked.

I think every studded tire should have a $1000 seasonal tax applied to it.

 

[Maverickxeo]

Don't bother thinking about history when it comes to winter tires. They've made major advances since then. To the point of making the 3PMSF symbol meaningless.

All 3PMSF certifies is that the tire has 10% better traction than a standard AT tire when accelerating in light snow. Ice isn't even tested. AT tires only barely surpass that mark. Winter tires are now approaching 130% better traction in snow and ice and far better control when skidding. It's night & day and calls for a re-assessment of the winter rating system.

As for studs the only surface they're still providing an improvement on is artificial flat ice, like an ice rink. Surprisingly, non-studded winter tires now have better traction on natural ice, like a frozen lake. Studs are detrimental to traction in dry & wet conditions. They do nothing in snow.

Bottom line, winter tire compounds have improved to the point where studs are primarily a placebo for people who don't trust the tire compound yet and no AT tire comes remotely close.

In a completely anecdotal experience - I had a 94 Grande Cherokee (a few years back that I miled out) that I had Blackhawk Ice Prey tires - I ran them for most of a season, and then went to the Kuhmo AT2 - I noticed absolutely no difference in performance in snow or ice - or if I did, it was very minimal - it certainly wasn't worth me keeping the winter tires.

I've put on a lot of KM in the winter - I used to commute 100+ KM one way.

 

[Reinen]

In a completely anecdotal experience - I had a 94 Grande Cherokee (a few years back that I miled out) that I had Blackhawk Ice Prey tires - I ran them for most of a season, and then went to the Kuhmo AT2 - I noticed absolutely no difference in performance in snow or ice - or if I did, it was very minimal - it certainly wasn't worth me keeping the winter tires.

I've put on a lot of KM in the winter - I used to commute 100+ KM one way.

Blackhawk Ice Prey? I had to google that because I never heard of them. Cheap Chinese knock off tire. Most of their US retailers are concentrated in the southeast. Um... there ain't no snow there. If they get any snow those states are in emergency shutdown. Nothing about them says good winter tire.

I wouldn't base your opinion of winter tires on that tire. I'd expect them to be cheap and terrible. Nokian Hakkapeliitta, Michelin X-Ice, Bridgestone Blizzaks are the top 3 and are with 1% performance difference. Continental and Cooper make good mid-tier winter tires.

 

[Maverickxeo]

Blackhawk Ice Prey? I had to google that because I never heard of them. Cheap Chinese knock off tire. Most of their US retailers are concentrated in the southeast. Um... there ain't no snow there. If they get any snow those states are in emergency shutdown. Nothing about them says good winter tire.

I wouldn't base your opinion of winter tires on that tire. I'd expect them to be cheap and terrible. Nokian Hakkapeliitta, Michelin X-Ice, Bridgestone Blizzaks are the top 3 and are with 1% performance difference. Continental and Cooper make good mid-tier winter tires.

They were highly recommended as a 'mid tier' tire by the local tire shop here (OK Tire) - and they do know there stuff.

Either way - I've been told in the past that the worst winter is better than an AT tire - and it wasn't really my experience. I just can't see spending the money on extra tires, wheels, storage, etc, when they will just dry rot before I use them up.

 

[Reinen]

They were highly recommended as a 'mid tier' tire by the local tire shop here (OK Tire) - and they do know there stuff.

They know what tire gives them the highest profit margin. Those are definitely 'low tier'. Never take a tire recommendation from someone who is selling them. They're probably around the level of the Federal Himalaya ICEO. Which are not even worth buying. They were probably hoping to sell you those tires and an 'upper tier' tire later on.

I completely understand getting 3PMSF ATs in areas that have very mild winters and driving very cautiously when snow and ice does happen. But your profile says Alberta Canada. How is a winter tire going to dry rot there? You have many months below 45F/7C.

I used to say that worst winter tire is better line. But apparently that just caused some off-brand Chinese manufacturers to make a worse "winter tire". The real problem is that the only rating is 3PMSF and that's on all tires from barely better than a standard ATs to drastically better than a standard AT tire. It just leads to confusion and shady marketing claims.

 

[Maverickxeo]

They know what tire gives them the highest profit margin. Those are definitely 'low tier'. Never take a tire recommendation from someone who is selling them. They're probably around the level of the Federal Himalaya ICEO. Which are not even worth buying. They were probably hoping to sell you those tires and an 'upper tier' tire later on.

Fair enough - I do trust them though.

I completely understand getting 3PMSF ATs in areas that have very mild winters and driving very cautiously when snow and ice does happen. But your profile says Alberta Canada. How is a winter tire going to dry rot there? You have many months below 45F/7C.

The winters still exist in the summer - so they do still deal with heat as well. Also, my main tires would also dry rot as well before the tread would wear off.

I used to say that worst winter tire is better line. But apparently that just caused some off-brand Chinese manufacturers to make a worse "winter tire". The real problem is that the only rating is 3PMSF and that's on all tires from barely better than a standard ATs to drastically better than a standard AT tire. It just leads to confusion and shady marketing claims.

Maybe if I can find some good used ones, I'd give them a try.

 

[AFD]

What I have found, though, more and more in recent years, is intersections in town getting very icy, due I think to two things that so many idiots are doing nowadays much more than before: 1) racing up to red lights and then slamming on their brakes, glazing the road surface in the process, and also 2) taking off (or trying to take off) excessively fast from the green lights, and ending up doing the same thing. But I think it's much more the hard braking that is doing it.

What IS it about so many idiots on the roads nowadays, who drive like a stupid 16 year-old punk who just got his first driver's license that very day?

I've met a lot of well-seasoned drivers that also like to 'test' current road conditions by doing the same dumb shit. Spike on their brakes at stop sign/light to see if the roads are slippery or goose it when taking off for the same reason. This is dumb for multiple reasons. First, a lot of other drivers think this is a logical spot for testing road conditions, which often only makes it more slippery in that location, therefore it's not really a reliable indication of road conditions everywhere else. And second, making the lead up to an intersection even more slippery is just dangerous for other drivers that are actually trying to safely stop there without inadvertently sliding out into traffic.

I get the idea behind doing this, but just think it's safer for everyone if they test things out in a parking lot or even by doing the same by stopping at some other random point on the road (if there isn't traffic around).

 

[Reinen]

The winters still exist in the summer - so they do still deal with heat as well. Also, my main tires would also dry rot as well before the tread would wear off.

In UT we have 100+F summer temps and 0F winter temps. Summer tires for 6mo, Winter tires for 6mo. There's no dry rot issues. I wear out tires long before they dry rot, and they last twice as long since they're in 6mo rotation. Switched when temps cross 45F/7C.

It's not that winter tires can't ever be in 100F temps (if they're out of the sun). The tread compound is very soft so if you use them in 100F temps they will wear very quickly and they'll perform poorly because they're too soft.

 

[Chugiakguy]

In UT we have 100+F summer temps and 0F winter temps. Summer tires for 6mo, Winter tires for 6mo. There's no dry rot issues. I wear out tires long before they dry rot, and they last twice as long since they're in 6mo rotation. Switched when temps cross 45F/7C.

It's not that winter tires can't ever be in 100F temps (if they're out of the sun). The tread compound is very soft so if you use them in 100F temps they will wear very quickly and they'll perform poorly because they're too soft.

People I know have experienced rapid wear on their Blizzaks (for example) even in the winter, when we had relatively little ice or snow, and the roads remained pretty dry throughout the season. I know one man who wore out a set of Blizzaks in one season!

 

[Cyber_Jeeper]

In UT we have 100+F summer temps and 0F winter temps. Summer tires for 6mo, Winter tires for 6mo. There's no dry rot issues. I wear out tires long before they dry rot, and they last twice as long since they're in 6mo rotation. Switched when temps cross 45F/7C.

It's not that winter tires can't ever be in 100F temps (if they're out of the sun). The tread compound is very soft so if you use them in 100F temps they will wear very quickly and they'll perform poorly because they're too soft.

I’m also in Utah, do you travel on your winter tires at all? With us living a few hours away from warmer climates such as Moab, Saint George, and Las Vegas I worry that if I put on winter tires I would need to exchange them for standard AT’s multiple times per winter.

 

[AcesandEights]

Don't bother thinking about history when it comes to winter tires. They've made major advances since then. To the point of making the 3PMSF symbol meaningless.

All 3PMSF certifies is that the tire has 10% better traction than a standard AT tire when accelerating in light snow. Ice isn't even tested. AT tires only barely surpass that mark. Winter tires are now approaching 130% better traction in snow and ice and far better control when skidding. It's night & day and calls for a re-assessment of the winter rating system.

As for studs the only surface they're still providing an improvement on is artificial flat ice, like an ice rink. Surprisingly, non-studded winter tires now have better traction on natural ice, like a frozen lake. Studs are detrimental to traction in dry & wet conditions. They do nothing in snow.

Bottom line, winter tire compounds have improved to the point where studs are primarily a placebo for people who don't trust the tire compound yet and no AT tire comes remotely close.

Most of that is correct, but I think it's at least ten percent better, and although it's an acceleration test in the US, those tires were tested for braking as well. The US doesn't test braking, but to meet the 3PMSF designation in other countries it has to include braking...so although we don't test for braking, if it has the 3PMSF, it meets a standard for braking.

It's not the same as a tire with 130 - 150 traction rating, but it's certainly better than a tire with less than.

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