TrailRecon- Engine Failure

[Jeep Junkie]

My confidence is back, now I know that it takes 800 bucks to fix the thingy in the Pentastar's head. Three thingy replacements over 500,000 miles s not a bad deal

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[DanW]

If people change it often enough, that’s possibly correct, it shouldn’t be a problem. I was saying SOME do not and additional capacity, not overfilling a shallow sump that would cause more harmful oil aeration and windage with the crankshaft beating against the surface of the oil in the crankcase, would only help with oil life.

And I don’t think there’s been any scientific data collection comparing failure rate with different capacities. With the varying operating conditions, mileage intervals, that would be pretty difficult outside of an engine dyno room simulating driving.

Also, I could see testing done for differing oil levels and that being how they likely come up with the crosshatch marks on the dipstick. However, they are not going to recommend an oil level where oil aeration and windage are unnecessarily high and harmful IE, load bearing capacity of the hydrodynamic oil wedge going down at the main and rod bearings.

The only way would be a properly designed higher capacity oil pan.

You didn´t understand what I was saying. When the PUG was designed, the standard for engineering at FCA, the company at that time, was that all engines MUST meet all performance standards with as much as 1 quart of oil low or 1 quart overfilled. There won´t be even the risk of aeration at that level. Because the engine would not meet the standard with aeration. This came straight from one of the designers of the gen 1 Pentastar, and he said that standard was still 100% in place with the PUG design.

It was in response to all the folks with the PUG whose dealerships were overfilling them to 6 quarts because the techs assumed all Pentastars were the same and they did not know the PUG had been reduced to 5 quarts. We´ve seen many of these cases right here on this very forum. But I have never seen a report of an engine damaged by aeration caused by overfilling. That´s because of the safety margin. Same with the Gladiator forum. WIth so many people discovering the overfill, you can imagine a huge number never noticed. And some dealerships still do it. They are not seeing damage from it or they would have corrected that VERY quickly.

He also advised me to put 7 quarts in my 2008 JK´s 3.8 because it sometimes used almost 1 quart of oil per 1k miles. So I started doing that. I did that for about 40k miles with no issues. Sometimes it did not use any oil at all, which is a weird thing about the 3.8. Anyway, like I said, if it is that worrisome, you could over fill it but don´t go over 1 quart. (I´m not advising anyone else to do it. I made that choice only for myself.) They tested it with the full battery of engineering tests at 1 quart overfilled to meet that standard. They did NOT test it above that level. Same goes for 1 quart low.

Most car companies have that same standard. Because people overfill the crank case all the time. And they also frequently fail to check oil, so it is common to run low, as well. It makes perfect sense and it would give a car company major headaches if they did not build in those safety margins.

A quick note on checking oil in Jeep engines. The engine should be hot and Jeep recommends checking it 5 minutes after shutting it off, to get a proper reading. When my 2018 Jeep was new, I did not realize this and wound up with 5.5 quarts until I figured it out and got a proper reading. No issues, ever. Just a little high on the dipstick. My old 3.8 read the same when warm, no matter when I checked it. But the PUG seems to show a difference, and that is why they recommend waiting 5 minutes.

 

[TheRaven]

You didn´t understand what I was saying. When the PUG was designed, the standard for engineering at FCA, the company at that time, was that all engines MUST meet all performance standards with as much as 1 quart of oil low or 1 quart overfilled. There won´t be even the risk of aeration at that level. Because the engine would not meet the standard with aeration. This came straight from one of the designers of the gen 1 Pentastar, and he said that standard was still 100% in place with the PUG design.

It was in response to all the folks with the PUG whose dealerships were overfilling them to 6 quarts because the techs assumed all Pentastars were the same and they did not know the PUG had been reduced to 5 quarts. We´ve seen many of these cases right here on this very forum. But I have never seen a report of an engine damaged by aeration caused by overfilling. That´s because of the safety margin. Same with the Gladiator forum. WIth so many people discovering the overfill, you can imagine a huge number never noticed. And some dealerships still do it. They are not seeing damage from it or they would have corrected that VERY quickly.

He also advised me to put 7 quarts in my 2008 JK´s 3.8 because it sometimes used almost 1 quart of oil per 1k miles. So I started doing that. I did that for about 40k miles with no issues. Sometimes it did not use any oil at all, which is a weird thing about the 3.8. Anyway, like I said, if it is that worrisome, you could over fill it but don´t go over 1 quart. (I´m not advising anyone else to do it. I made that choice only for myself.) They tested it with the full battery of engineering tests at 1 quart overfilled to meet that standard. They did NOT test it above that level. Same goes for 1 quart low.

Most car companies have that same standard. Because people overfill the crank case all the time. And they also frequently fail to check oil, so it is common to run low, as well. It makes perfect sense and it would give a car company major headaches if they did not build in those safety margins.

See this is a great example of WHY I put a ton of weight on what's in the manual. It's not because engineers are infallible and never make mistakes. It's not because I believe that any huge automaker has our best interests in mind. It's because the people who designed the vehicle made these recommendations after thousands of test miles on hundreds of examples trying every reasonable combination to figure out what works best. You either have to be ignorant to those facts or have quite the ego to believe that you know better. it is in any modern automakers best interests to make sure their vehicles last as long as possible (not just to the end of the warranty) because their reputations make or break their sales (see Stellantis' current situation for all the proof you need).

These same threads (premium fuel, oil viscosity) exist on every car forum ever, going back to the beginning of car forums.

 

[mrtm1970]

Since this seems to be the present highway for viewerships and responses…
As it pertains to the issue at hand…

Are the rockers the same on the Left (passenger side of the engine) as the right? Meaning, since there is a nationwide back log for the left intake kit, can individual rockers/lifters be ordered and all the parts except the Cam shaft? Or can another right intake kit be purchased and unfortunately take the hit of buying another right cam shaft but have the rockers needed to replace them all on the left side?

 

[Ratbert]

See this is a great example of WHY I put a ton of weight on what's in the manual. It's not because engineers are infallible and never make mistakes. It's not because I believe that any huge automaker has our best interests in mind. It's because the people who designed the vehicle made these recommendations after thousands of test miles on hundreds of examples trying every reasonable combination to figure out what works best. You either have to be ignorant to those facts or have quite the ego to believe that you know better. it is in any modern automakers best interests to make sure their vehicles last as long as possible (not just to the end of the warranty) because their reputations make or break their sales (see Stellantis' current situation for all the proof you need).

These same threads (premium fuel, oil viscosity) exist on every car forum ever, going back to the beginning of car forums.

It would seriously suck to have an engine fail, then get warranty coverage denied simply due to using a different oil. Hopefully that wouldn't happen, but it seems plausible.

 

[TheRaven]

It would seriously suck to have an engine fail, then get warranty coverage denied simply due to using a different oil. Hopefully that wouldn't happen, but it seems plausible.

GM Claims that they will void lifter coverage if they find that something other than 0W-20 was used. I don't believe they can actually get away with that if challenged...but I imagine they don't expect to...I think it's just a scare tactic because they REALLY want you using 0W-20...and that tells me that they consider it vital for the operation of the DFM system. HOWEVER, NOW they have changed recommended viscosity on the '24 and newer 6.2l engines involved in the "debris" debacle so it seems that that removes any remaining teeth in the 0W-20 mandate. I also don't see it saving the affected 6.2's either.

 

[ASSFROW]

It would seriously suck to have an engine fail, then get warranty coverage denied simply due to using a different oil. Hopefully that wouldn't happen, but it seems plausible.

The owners manual says "we recommend", not we require, so I don't see how they could deny a claim, especially when it's happening to people running 0/20 and having problems at 35,000 miles or less. If you went crazy out of spec and they could show that's what caused the problem, then I can see them denying a claim. Since it's not an infrequent occurrence, I bet they're not even questioning oil unless it looks suspect.

 

[Jeep Junkie]

Scotty just uploaded a video titled why Jeeps are crap. But in the video he has nothing but good things to say about that 92 YJ

 

[Ratbert]

Scotty just uploaded a video titled why Jeeps are crap. But in the video he has nothing but good things to say about that 92 YJ

How is that related to the issues being discussed here? Just sharing your random thoughts?

 

[Jeep Junkie]

How is that related to the issues being discussed here? Just sharing your random thoughts?

Sorry

 

[Ratbert]

Sorry

It's completely fine to share random thoughts. Most of us attempt to try to tie it in with what's being discussed, but not always!

 

[DanW]

It's completely fine to share random thoughts. Most of us attempt to try to tie it in with what's being discussed, but not always!

My adult ADHD causes me to do that from time to time. No biggie. Besides, I love the YJ, so SQUIRREL!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Odyssey USA]

You didn´t understand what I was saying. When the PUG was designed, the standard for engineering at FCA, the company at that time, was that all engines MUST meet all performance standards with as much as 1 quart of oil low or 1 quart overfilled. There won´t be even the risk of aeration at that level. Because the engine would not meet the standard with aeration. This came straight from one of the designers of the gen 1 Pentastar, and he said that standard was still 100% in place with the PUG design.

It was in response to all the folks with the PUG whose dealerships were overfilling them to 6 quarts because the techs assumed all Pentastars were the same and they did not know the PUG had been reduced to 5 quarts. We´ve seen many of these cases right here on this very forum. But I have never seen a report of an engine damaged by aeration caused by overfilling. That´s because of the safety margin. Same with the Gladiator forum. WIth so many people discovering the overfill, you can imagine a huge number never noticed. And some dealerships still do it. They are not seeing damage from it or they would have corrected that VERY quickly.

He also advised me to put 7 quarts in my 2008 JK´s 3.8 because it sometimes used almost 1 quart of oil per 1k miles. So I started doing that. I did that for about 40k miles with no issues. Sometimes it did not use any oil at all, which is a weird thing about the 3.8. Anyway, like I said, if it is that worrisome, you could over fill it but don´t go over 1 quart. (I´m not advising anyone else to do it. I made that choice only for myself.) They tested it with the full battery of engineering tests at 1 quart overfilled to meet that standard. They did NOT test it above that level. Same goes for 1 quart low.

Most car companies have that same standard. Because people overfill the crank case all the time. And they also frequently fail to check oil, so it is common to run low, as well. It makes perfect sense and it would give a car company major headaches if they did not build in those safety margins.

A quick note on checking oil in Jeep engines. The engine should be hot and Jeep recommends checking it 5 minutes after shutting it off, to get a proper reading. When my 2018 Jeep was new, I did not realize this and wound up with 5.5 quarts until I figured it out and got a proper reading. No issues, ever. Just a little high on the dipstick. My old 3.8 read the same when warm, no matter when I checked it. But the PUG seems to show a difference, and that is why they recommend waiting 5 minutes.

I got what you were saying. It’s not gospel to me though but I’ll take your word for it. And I was saying IF there’s aeration, damage can occur…to explain further…it will happen IF the crank counterweights are turning through the oil surface. Does that always mean damage? Of course not. It depends. High rpms? Well, that’s not good.

I’ve not had either generation 3.6 on a stand and won’t know where 5qts or 6qts fills up to. Are there part number differences for the upper and lower sump? If it’s the same as the previous gen and the pickup tube is the same height from the bottom of the pan, go for it.

 

[Jeep Junkie]

You didn´t understand what I was saying. When the PUG was designed, the standard for engineering at FCA, the company at that time, was that all engines MUST meet all performance standards with as much as 1 quart of oil low or 1 quart overfilled. There won´t be even the risk of aeration at that level. Because the engine would not meet the standard with aeration. This came straight from one of the designers of the gen 1 Pentastar, and he said that standard was still 100% in place with the PUG design.

It was in response to all the folks with the PUG whose dealerships were overfilling them to 6 quarts because the techs assumed all Pentastars were the same and they did not know the PUG had been reduced to 5 quarts. We´ve seen many of these cases right here on this very forum. But I have never seen a report of an engine damaged by aeration caused by overfilling. That´s because of the safety margin. Same with the Gladiator forum. WIth so many people discovering the overfill, you can imagine a huge number never noticed. And some dealerships still do it. They are not seeing damage from it or they would have corrected that VERY quickly.

He also advised me to put 7 quarts in my 2008 JK´s 3.8 because it sometimes used almost 1 quart of oil per 1k miles. So I started doing that. I did that for about 40k miles with no issues. Sometimes it did not use any oil at all, which is a weird thing about the 3.8. Anyway, like I said, if it is that worrisome, you could over fill it but don´t go over 1 quart. (I´m not advising anyone else to do it. I made that choice only for myself.) They tested it with the full battery of engineering tests at 1 quart overfilled to meet that standard. They did NOT test it above that level. Same goes for 1 quart low.

Most car companies have that same standard. Because people overfill the crank case all the time. And they also frequently fail to check oil, so it is common to run low, as well. It makes perfect sense and it would give a car company major headaches if they did not build in those safety margins.

A quick note on checking oil in Jeep engines. The engine should be hot and Jeep recommends checking it 5 minutes after shutting it off, to get a proper reading. When my 2018 Jeep was new, I did not realize this and wound up with 5.5 quarts until I figured it out and got a proper reading. No issues, ever. Just a little high on the dipstick. My old 3.8 read the same when warm, no matter when I checked it. But the PUG seems to show a difference, and that is why they recommend waiting 5 minutes.

Hey, my Jeep needs 17 minutes for the oil to get full on both sides of the dipstick

 

[DanW]

Hey, my Jeep needs 17 minutes for the oil to get full on both sides of the dipstick

It´s weird, I know. I put a 5 quart jug in my Gladiator last weekend and had to drive it around for awhile before it would show correctly on the dipstick.

These things have never-ending draining and are strange on fill-up, too. Quirky engine that way. Maybe that is why some of the dealerships are filling them inadvertently to 6 quarts. Maybe they aren´t mistaking it for the gen 1, like we all think? Lol.

The main thing is that with an oil change, I know exactly how much I put in there, as long as I don´t see a puddle on the driveway. LOL.

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