To locker or not to locker?

[omnitonic]

The reality is unless you know a shop that specializes in differentials, it’s really a crapshoot as to whether they know much more than you about setting one up.

You got this.

One of the shops has Differential right in the name. Their work is supposed to come with a lifetime guarantee, and they hold you to a service schedule to check on how things are performing. They sounded really competent and on the ball until I actually talked to them on the phone. Then they sounded like morons. In their defense, somebody was at a funeral. Maybe the funeral guy has the clue.

But any reputable 4x4 shop will do the work all of the time

The other shop is a reputable 4x4 shop. I talked to some people I know to feel that shop out, and all I heard were positive things. Based on my experience with them, I can't imagine why.

What part of the country are these “shops” that don’t seem to want to do the work? I find it odd that they don’t seem to want to buy I have come across it before. Especially construction/remodeling.

Southwestern Virginia.

So to summarize, I got an email from the differential shop today. "Working with my vendors." End of message. Well, it's something.

I'm probably just going to do it myself, but I need more schooling before I'm ready to start unbolting things. I feel I probably CAN handle the job, but I don't want to be chasing parts and tools in the middle of the job. I want all my ducks lined up before I go up on jack stands.

I mean hell, I didn't even accomplish that goal on the lift I just did. The jam nuts on the track bars were 1/16" bigger than any wrench I owned. It's always something. It always will be something, but I want to come as close as possible to having everything lined up before I start the work.

Thanks for the input, gentlemen!

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[ThirtyOne]

One of the shops has Differential right in the name. Their work is supposed to come with a lifetime guarantee, and they hold you to a service schedule to check on how things are performing. They sounded really competent and on the ball until I actually talked to them on the phone. Then they sounded like morons. In their defense, somebody was at a funeral. Maybe the funeral guy has the clue.



The other shop is a reputable 4x4 shop. I talked to some people I know to feel that shop out, and all I heard were positive things. Based on my experience with them, I can't imagine why.

Southwestern Virginia.

So to summarize, I got an email from the differential shop today. "Working with my vendors." End of message. Well, it's something.

I'm probably just going to do it myself, but I need more schooling before I'm ready to start unbolting things. I feel I probably CAN handle the job, but I don't want to be chasing parts and tools in the middle of the job. I want all my ducks lined up before I go up on jack stands.

I mean hell, I didn't even accomplish that goal on the lift I just did. The jam nuts on the track bars were 1/16" bigger than any wrench I owned. It's always something. It always will be something, but I want to come as close as possible to having everything lined up before I start the work.

Thanks for the input, gentlemen!

You should just have Shawn (@chevymitchell ) do it. You are not that far away. It will be a fair price and you know he will do it right.

 

[omnitonic]

You should just have Shawn (@chevymitchell ) do it. You are not that far away. It will be a fair price and you know he will do it right.

I'd definitely be willing to talk to the guy, but he limits access to his profile, so I can't contact him.

 

[ThirtyOne]

I'd definitely be willing to talk to the guy, but he limits access to his profile, so I can't contact him.

Message me. I will get you in contact with him.

 

[chevymitchell]

I'd definitely be willing to talk to the guy, but he limits access to his profile, so I can't contact him.

I have it set to Members:

You're welcome to reach out anytime. Text me at 3364429463.

Thanks.

 

[oldcjguy]

I didn't read all of this but here's my take and advice.

Don't fear an LSD. They wear out quicker when they are being used a lot in low traction situations like sand and snow. The JLs brake-loc system actually helps an LSD work better. The LSD doesn't "go bad" in 30k. The diff is fine. The clutch pack may get worn but it's serviceable.

Do NOT use an LSD, automatic locker or a torsen (worm gear) style diff in the front if you're keeping FAD. Either go open diff or locker (manual/air/electronic). The FAD will only disconnect 1 axle making the diff work so it doesn't spin the carrier and in turn the front drive shaft.

If you're not on rocks an open front with an LSD or locking rear will be SUPER capable. For very low traction situations you can use the brake peddle to help transfer power to that one low traction wheel. You'll be in 4wd so it's not like it's going to stop a wheel or axle. Especially in 4Lo.

With a locker in the back and use of the brake peddle that thing will be a trail monster. Even on rocks. Sure a locker up front would be better but not strictly necessary, especially for what you want.

 

[omnitonic]

I have it set to Members:

Maybe the site glitched or something. I got an oops page. No worries. I got your text, and I'll be in touch as soon as I deal with my current life snafu. Just when you think you never, ever have to deal with your ex again, you have to deal with your ex again. Yee. Ha.

 

[word302]

I didn't read all of this but here's my take and advice.

Don't fear an LSD. They wear out quicker when they are being used a lot in low traction situations like sand and snow. The JLs brake-loc system actually helps an LSD work better. The LSD doesn't "go bad" in 30k. The diff is fine. The clutch pack may get worn but it's serviceable.

Do NOT use an LSD, automatic locker or a torsen (worm gear) style diff in the front if you're keeping FAD. Either go open diff or locker (manual/air/electronic). The FAD will only disconnect 1 axle making the diff work so it doesn't spin the carrier and in turn the front drive shaft.

If you're not on rocks an open front with an LSD or locking rear will be SUPER capable. For very low traction situations you can use the brake peddle to help transfer power to that one low traction wheel. You'll be in 4wd so it's not like it's going to stop a wheel or axle. Especially in 4Lo.

With a locker in the back and use of the brake peddle that thing will be a trail monster. Even on rocks. Sure a locker up front would be better but not strictly necessary, especially for what you want.

What are you trying to peddle here?

 

[omnitonic]

Don't fear an LSD. They wear out quicker when they are being used a lot in low traction situations like sand and snow. The JLs brake-loc system actually helps an LSD work better. The LSD doesn't "go bad" in 30k. The diff is fine. The clutch pack may get worn but it's serviceable... Do NOT use an LSD, automatic locker or a torsen (worm gear) style diff in the front if you're keeping FAD.

I've been mulling this over for some time now. I have a perfectly serviceable solution to wheel spin in the rear, for the moment. A full locker would be better, but this factory rear limited slip should continue to work reasonably well for as long as it works. It could be used up in six months, or it could run for six years. I could just run it until it stops working, and switch it to something else at a future time, or just service it.

Who knows. By then, I might have encountered a situation that convinced me to swap axles entirely, in which case I would buy axles that came equipped with whatever I wanted. Dana Ultimate 44s, most likely.

Then there's the FAD. That runs square into the middle of so many questions and caveats that it's a research project unto itself. It would be a lot less of a headache just to leave it all alone. If I delete the FAD one day, I do it when I swap to a more beefy front axle.

So I think I have decided not to locker, and just regear and live happily ever after for awhile.

 

[entropy]

Some of you followed my regear thread, where I spun my mental wheels for the longest time, and finally settled on 4.56 gears.

Now I'm asking myself if I should do lockers while I have everything apart. If there is any chance I would ever wish I had lockers, there is no better time than while the pumpkins are gutted anyway.

I have an OBA system, so air lockers are a pretty obvious choice.

I have a rear Dana M220 "Anti-Spin Differential" that performs really well, so I'm thinking maybe just a locker up front (Dana M186).

As I understand it, the LSD is of the clutch pack type, and it will crap out at about 30k miles. I'm not sure if it would be worse to yank it and put in a locker now, or to wait until it fails at some unpredictable future time, and put in a locker then. Or even just service it, or replace it with the Eaton thingadoodle (oh, don't you just love the exacting precision?!) that works pretty well, and lacks consumable components.

The tl;dr version is that I don't really want to spend $4,000+, but I don't want to hate myself down the line for not getting lockers while I had the chance.

Saying that your LSD will crap out at 30k miles is a wild guess. It could last much longer than that. Ive used the shit out of mine for 20k miles and it doesnt show any signs of severe wear. You only truly need a front locker if you are doing hard obstacles, you might get away without it but youll be stacking rocks and using momentum. you might regret not getting it depending what you plan on doing. I really wish I had a front locker, I am getting one.

Youll try to climb some slick rock, then theres a hole right where your rear tire goes cause people get stuck there and dig it out. Your LSD is gonna try to push the vehicle and youll pivot and fall off. it isnt fun. need a little pull. a winch will get you through anything but wheres the fun in that, plus it takes time and youll create a bottleneck on the trail.

lvl 5~7 trails youll be fine without a front locker. Youre in W.Virginia so youll be fine.

 

[omnitonic]

Saying that your LSD will crap out at 30k miles is a wild guess. It could last much longer than that. Ive used the shit out of mine for 20k miles and it doesnt show any signs of severe wear

That was pretty much my point in my most recent post. It could go six months or six years. The idea behind changing it out while I'm doing the gears was to avoid having to go back into the pumpkin in the future, but it's just too hard for me to get everything right in one pass. I don't know what I'm going to do with the Jeep in the future. I'm trying to plan for battles I haven't even fought yet, on battlegrounds I haven't even seen yet.

The worst case is it turns out like the rear axles on my old F350. How many times have I taken all that apart and had to change the wheel seals? A total of four, I think. The last time was when I changed the drums I should have changed the first time. I'm always having to tear the hubs off that Dana 70. I will never get all the work and all future work done in one pass, and I'm just going to have to tear the hubs off the Dana 70 again at some point. So I'm going to have to open the pumpkin(s) on this Jeep again at some point too. It's just life.

You only truly need a front locker if you are doing rock crawling stuff, you might get away without it but youll be stacking rocks and using momentum. you might regret not getting it depending what you plan on doing. I really wish I had a front locker, I am getting one.

To FAD, not to FAD, what can I get that will fit, and why not just change to a beefier axle? Meh. I might as well actually get the thing in trouble somewhere, if I even can, before I get into that.

 

[oldcjguy]

What are you trying to peddle here?

Keeping your foot on the gas and hitting the brake peddle will add resistance to the wheel that's free spinning (has the least traction) causing the diff to transfer torque to the other wheel (the one that has more traction). An open diff will always transfer the most power to the wheel with the least traction. It's just a side effect of the design and being able to differentiate. Yes, applying the brakes tries to slow all the wheels down, but that's ok since they are all mechanically connected when in 4hi or 4lo. Any resistance causes torque to be transferred to the opposing wheel. That's what the computer is trying to do with "brake-loc".

 

[CarbonSteel]

To FAD, not to FAD, what can I get that will fit, and why not just change to a beefier axle? Meh. I might as well actually get the thing in trouble somewhere, if I even can, before I get into that.

I kept my FAD although I replaced the axle shafts with RCV and added a truss + gussets on the axle and I am happy that I did. I initially installed Dana Spice CrMo axles front and rear, but had an initial problem with the front axles in that they would not "disconnect" and at highway speeds there was a pretty strong vibration. They eventually released and the FAD began to work as it should, however, even with the short time the vibration existed, I can attest it was not something that I was prepared to live with for much longer without a solution.

During the time that it did exist, I spent a lot of time researching as I initially suspected (before I knew the root cause) that the driveshaft may have been the source of the vibration. In the end, it was the source, but not from an out of balance or other problem perspective. It was because it was never intended for the driveshaft to be turning at those speeds.

Adams Driveshaft sums it up best:

Due to Jeep changing their angles on the JT and JL Models, if you install an After Market Differential or Axle Kit that Eliminates the [FAD] front axle disconnect and the driveshaft spins full-time, it may result in a vibration and/or premature U-joint and CV failure.

https://www.adamsdriveshaftoffroad....veshaft-oem-flange-style-extreme-duty-series/

 

[omnitonic]

During the time that it did exist, I spent a lot of time researching as I initially suspected (before I knew the root cause) that the driveshaft may have been the source of the vibration. In the end, it was the source, but not from an out of balance or other problem perspective. It was because it was never intended for the driveshaft to be turning at those speeds.

Under the best of circumstances, the front driveshaft is just kind of caught in the crossfire at the center of a conflict between the pinion angle and caster. At least that's what it looks like to my eye. Longer lower control arms, more caster, worse pinion angle. It looks like it would vibrate like hammered hell at highway speed, because that front joint is nowhere close to being in an optimal orientation.

Score another one for don't delete the FAD. If I did want to do so for some reason, that would be a whole different research project.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Under the best of circumstances, the front driveshaft is just kind of caught in the crossfire at the center of a conflict between the pinion angle and caster. At least that's what it looks like to my eye. Longer lower control arms, more caster, worse pinion angle. It looks like it would vibrate like hammered hell at highway speed, because that front joint is nowhere close to being in an optimal orientation.

Score another one for don't delete the FAD. If I did want to do so for some reason, that would be a whole different research project.

Agree and very informative of Adam's to point it out. I had always intended to keep my FAD as I like the intent and the way it works. I just had to compensate for the weaknesses--trusses+gussets, chrome moly axles, and skid plates.

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