Stop/Start Not Ready-Battery Charging

[jeepoch]

I had the aux battery replaced, still have Start/Stop not ready battery charging message. I'm going for a 200 km trip today see if it clears. If not, back to the dealership on Thursday. Not much I can do since it's under warranty. I mentioned the CanBus connector.

The Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS) requires some amount of time to reevaluate your battery's State of Charge (SoC). This can take many hours. Generally a good rule of thumb is to give it an over-night while parked.

Jay

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[Altitude2020]

The Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS) requires some amount of time to reevaluate your battery's State of Charge (SoC). This can take many hours. Generally a good rule of thumb is to give it an over-night while parked.

Jay

Hopefully, I have not touched it since last night. Taking it on a 200km drive in about an hour. I have a Thursday appointment at the dealership. So eventually this issue will be resolved.

 

[AndySpill]

It's true your ESS battery won't charge if your PCR relay is permanently open or your PCR (ESS) fuse is blown, but your vehicle would soon stop running at all.

The PCR relay is a normally closed relay.

For those less familiar with relay nomenclature this means that when that PCR device fails to have current applied to it, which is in fact the case 99.9% of the time, but for (in dual AGM battery JLs) an instant at cold crank and ESS events, the two batteries are connected in parallel.

In replay parlance "normal" refers to how the relay acts when not energized, and closed refers to the a "closed circuit."

A blown PCR fuse (#42) would only serve to insure this relay permanently closed, no differently than the intent behind pulling this fuse when disconnecting an ESS battery, so that any attempts to energize this relay and separate/isolate the ESS battery fails, and calls by the vehicle for electrical current from just the ESS battery end up going to all available batteries, of which only the main battery remains connected.

If the PCR were a normally open relay, I could see your point.

 

[THAW]

The PCR relay is a normally closed relay.

For those less familiar with relay nomenclature this means that when that PCR device fails to have current applied to it, which is in fact the case 99.9% of the time, but for (in dual AGM battery JLs) an instant at cold crank and ESS events, the two batteries are connected in parallel.

In replay parlance "normal" refers to how the relay acts when not energized, and closed refers to the a "closed circuit."

A blown PCR fuse (#42) would only serve to insure this relay permanently closed, no differently than the intent behind pulling this fuse when disconnecting an ESS battery, so that any attempts to energize this relay and separate/isolate the ESS battery fails, and calls by the vehicle for electrical current from just the ESS battery end up going to all available batteries, of which only the main battery remains connected.

If the PCR were a normally open relay, I could see your point.

Adding on...

While less likely, a normally closed relay can stick in the open position. Or the wiring connection to the relay terminals could fail. Thus the intentional use of the catch all phrase "bad relay" for a broken electrical connection involving a normally closed relay.

For clarity, I believe the post referred to the N3 fuse ("PCR (ESS)"), not fuse F42.

The primary point in the context of this thread is neither a blown PCR (ESS)/N3 fuse nor a relay failure is the cause of ESS system non-function if the vehicle continues to be drivable over time

 

[Altitude2020]

The Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS) requires some amount of time to reevaluate your battery's State of Charge (SoC). This can take many hours. Generally a good rule of thumb is to give it an over-night while parked.

Jay

Yuup, 100km drive and its now saying Autu/Stop start ready. Another drive made it kick in.

 

[AndySpill]

Adding on...

While less likely, a normally closed relay can stick in the open position. Or the wiring connection to the relay terminals could fail. Thus the intentional use of the catch all phrase "bad relay" for a broken electrical connection involving a normally closed relay.

For clarity, I believe the post referred to the N3 fuse ("PCR (ESS)"), not fuse F42.

The primary point in the context of this thread is neither a failed PCR (ESS)/N3 fuse nor the relay is the cause of the ESS system not functioning if the vehicle continues to be drivable over time

It isn't whether a relay can get stuck in the open or closed postion. It's whether a normally closed relay can get stuck in the open position or a normally open relay can get stuck in the closed position, which is pretty rare considering that relays have mechanism, be they springs or magnets that have to be opposed with (electrical) force to change their default deenergized state.

As to your clarity, none is needed. I wasn't criticiquing your reference to the N3 fuse, I was making an analogy that a blown Fuse 42 is like a pulled Fuse 42 in that both deprive power to the PCR causing "400,000 PCR relays to remain closed, for every 1 that gets stuck in the open postition."

 

[ecidiego]

I had the aux battery replaced, still have Start/Stop not ready battery charging message. I'm going for a 200 km trip today see if it clears. If not, back to the dealership on Thursday. Not much I can do since it's under warranty. I mentioned the CanBus connector.

Getting a new Aux battery doesn't mean it was charged. Always charge "new" batteries with a portable charger before installing them, and always reset the IBS by disconnecting it for awhile when replacing batteries.

 

[THAW]

...causing "400,000 PCR relays to remain closed, for every 1 that gets stuck in the open postition."

So you're saying it's unlikely but possible for a normally closed relay to be stuck open?

Where have I seen that information before? ??

As far as the N3 fuse is concerned it's my understand that its failure while prevent the alternator from recharing the batteries, which if so will cause both the ESS system to stop functioning, as the ESS battery's voltage drops, and the vehicle to NOT be drivable over time as the both batteries, deprived of recharge, lose their ability to serve the electrical needs of the vehicle and/or crank the engine.

A blown N3 ("PCR (ESS)") fuse discoonects the ESS/Aux battery and some system electronics from the alternator and the main battery. The main battery receives charge until the ESS battery is drained by the system electronics to the point it can no longer power them at which time the vehicle becomes inoperable.

 

[AndySpill]

So you're saying it's unlikely but possible for a normally closed relay to be stuck open?

Where have I seen that information before? ??



A blown N3 ("PCR (ESS)") fuse discoonects the ESS/Aux battery and some system electronics from the alternator and the main battery. The main battery receives charge until the ESS battery is drained by the system electronics to the point it can no longer power them at which time the vehicle becomes inoperable.

As you must know, we make informed decisions Foster not by possibility but likelihood of occurence, or in your case remote likelihood. Relays tend to be enormously reliable in their energized or de-energized state and orders or magnitude more likely, if to fail, to do so in their deenergized state, which here, for the PCR, is "closed," with the batteries connected in parallel.

The fact that in other contexts you've seen the unlikely but possible materialize has, as you must know, no bearing here. Different circumstances have their own independent odds.

Then you write prior that neither a blown PCR (ESS)/N3 fuse nor a relay failure is the cause of ESS system non-function if the vehicle continues to be drivable over time.

Followed by: a blown N3 ("PCR (ESS)") fuse disconnects the ESS/Aux battery and some system electronics from the alternator and the main battery.

So, follow me here: it's a voltage deprived ESS battery, not defective relays or fuses that prevents (in addition to about 12 other conditions like a turned steering wheel) the ESS system from engaging....

But if, as you say, a blown N3 fuse disconnects the ESS/Aux battery from (the alternator) preventing it from charging...

...which in absence of said alternator recharge will lose voltage with use and time...

won't that low ESS battery voltage condition cause the ESS system to stop functioning, a system that checks the ESS battery's voltage to determine, again, among "12 other conditions," whether to engage ESS at a stop like?

So, by your own explanation of how things work won't a blown N3 fuse cause the ESS system, even if indirectly, to stop working in its depriving the ESS battery of charge?

If that was your point I think it got lost somewhere.

Maybe I've missed something or misquoted you.

 

[THAW]

Maybe I've missed something or misquoted you.

Perhaps it would be helpful to read the post to which I originally replied. The member stated his ESS hadn't worked for over a year and before replacing his batteries he planned to have a dealer check his PCR and "PCR (ESS)" fuse (quoted recommendations from a different source) to make sure his ESS battery is being charged. I explained the tests are unnecessary because his vehicle would've stopped operating if his ESS battery wasn't receiving charge due to those particular part failures, and he replied he'd have the items checked anyway. Case closed.

I believe everything I've stated has been accurate and appropriate to the context. What is your purpose in questioning my statements? It appears to me you're essentially repeating information I've already stated.

 

[AndySpill]

I believe everything I've stated has been accurate and appropriate to the context. What is your purpose in questioning my statements? It appears to me you're essentially repeating information I've already stated.

The purpose in questioning your statements is to point out where you're wrong where you believe you're not, which by definition isn't repeating information as you claim, but correcting it.

Nothing about the context of the circumstances you replied to and wrongly consider relevant changes this simple fact:

"You wrote that neither a blown PCR (ESS)/N3 fuse nor a relay failure is the cause of ESS system non-function if the vehicle continues to be drivable over time."

Trying to give you every credit I can, there are two ways of looking at this for all intents and purposes wrong statement. One is the anal but IMHO wrong one of saying that technically the cause of ESS system non-function (assuming none of the 12 other conditions to keep ESS from running like a cold engine) is a ESS battery not up to voltage, not the N3 fuse...

...and the other far more practical one is is that a blown N3 fuse, which will in its demise prevent that ESS battery from getting the charge it needs to meet that voltage standard to get the ESS system to function, does indeed prevent the ESS system from functioning.

A blown PCR(ESS)/N3 fuse is very much IMHO, indirectly though it may be, the cause of ESS system non-function, in contrast to what you stated.

This isn't anal nor is it picking fights, and becomes clear as such when your statement is looked at in its opposite, or if you will, converse form.

Are you claiming that the ESS system will continue to run as good as ever if the N3 fuse is blown? It won't.

 

[AndySpill]

Again, if the ESS/aux battery isn't receiving charging current from the alternator (bad relay, blown fuse) the vehicle will stop operating altogether after a short time.

When the ESS battery begins to fail, the vehicle disables ESS. There's no need to turn it off to test anything.

In dual AGM battery JLs, if the ESS/Aux battery isn't receiving charge, in all but early model 2018s that lack TSB 18-092-19 (and that will as you describe stop being able to cold crank barring ESS/battery bypass/disconnection,) that vehicle will fail its next cold crank, but in attempts to cold crank subsequently, it will attempt to crank against the main battery, and provided this battery has ample cranking power the vehicle will turn the engine over and operate, and turn the ESS system off, placing just such an icon in the EVIC (dash): a letter "A" with a near circle around it followed by an exclamation point.

From that point on the vehicle should cold crank on the first attempt.

Only after, if at all, the introduction of a energized ESS/Aux battery will, at the next cold crank, the ESS system be turned back on.

But a ESS/Aux battery lacking in power should not, as you've written, cause the vehcile to stop operating altogether in all but the 2018s models I've noted.

 

[THAW]

But a ESS/Aux battery lacking in power should not, as you've written, cause the vehcile to stop operating altogether in all but the 2018s models I've noted.

That's not close to what I stated; I specifically referred to a hypothetical scenario introduced by another member in which a vehicle has a blown N3 fuse or a stuck PCR relay. In that case, when the ESS/Aux battery flattens, the system electronics downstream of N1 no longer have power.

And, your "note" is actually misleading, since it assumes the main battery voltage can overcome the effect of a bad ESS/Aux battery, which isn't always the case.

Are you claiming that the ESS system will continue to run as good as ever if the N3 fuse is blown? It won't.

Andy, quite simply, NO.

You are confused about my statements. Your wordy, meandering posts twist them - often until you inexplicably arrive at the opposite meaning. In my view, your continual attempts to demonstrate the statements are incorrect only serve to cloud the ESS system function for others.

I've enjoyed discussing these systems with you, but it appears doing so is no longer fruitful.

 

[AndySpill]

That's not close to what I stated;

I agree, it isn't close, it's exact:

" Again, if the ESS/aux battery isn't receiving charging current from the alternator (bad relay, blown fuse) the vehicle will stop operating altogether after a short time. "

I specifically referred to a hypothetical scenario introduced by another member in which a vehicle has a blown N3 fuse or a stuck PCR relay. In that case, when the ESS/Aux battery flattens, the system electronics downstream of N1 no longer have power.

No..you said, referring to the same quote just above, that the vehicle will stop operating altogether, not that the system electronics downstream of N1 no longer have power.

And, your "note" is actually misleading, since it assumes the main battery voltage can overcome the effect of a bad ESS/Aux battery, which isn't always the case.

No it's not misleading. In fact it accounts for the very cannabolization you describe. I've quoted you, now I'll quote me:

" it will attempt to crank against the main battery, and provided this battery has ample cranking power...."

You are confused about my statements. Your wordy.

I've directly quoted you. As far as verbocity is concerned, it takes words to make sure others don't follow you when you're wrong and why.

What is not fruitful is you making statements as fact, that have no bearing in truth, that people like Jerry Jebiruph set us straight on years ago with his personal testing.

Did you notice that I'm not the only one finding sad humor on some of your statements?

Please come here with fact, or state opinions as such. This is nothing personal much that I will correct you if you attempt to conflate the two.

Your direct statements that I quote aren't being misunderstood. It's just that some of them are wrong.

Please stop. It's several times now.

 

[THAW]

No..you said, referring to the same quote just above, that the vehicle will stop operating altogether, not that the system electronics downstream of N1 no longer have power.

The two are the same thing, said in different ways.

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