New EPA Rules

[Ratbert]

Not trying to argue with you, just stating the facts of the matter. As I said previously, it was never an actual mandate...manufacturers could choose NOT to add the start/stop functionality, forgo the credits, and pay substantially more money to buy absolution from the EPA, which would negatively impact their profitability and raise the price of cars for all of us (that would be a stupid choice)...or bend to the EPA and add the functionality.

Since all manufacturers went this route, it makes sense that people think it was an actual mandate....

Now that there is no longer any benefit to the manufacturer to continue to include this functionality, and most drivers prefer not to have it, it will likely go away.

Agreed.

I'm pretty sure, however, that Camaros didn't have it. Ditto for higher-end Mustangs as well as Miatas. Maybe even some variants of 4Runners and Tacos?

It was never mandated or required, but that's a recurring claim around here.

Shockingly, high-end sports cars (e.g. Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, etc.) seem to include it.

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[Ratbert]

Not all manufacturers used that obnoxious feature.

I'm pretty sure they all do, just not necessarily across the board.

 

[Bayrat]

I'm pretty sure they all do, just not necessarily across the board.

That's certainly possible. I know that none of the imported vehicles my lady has test driven or owned have had that feature, including her new Mazda, although their electric hybrids have it by default, for obvious reasons.

 

[Kyanche]

Just wait until a Gavin Newsome type moves into The People's House and outlaws diesel. Along with gas operated lawn mowers, weed trimmers, leaf blowers, plastic straws (nevermind, forget that last one).

i'd outlaw using the lawn mower before 10am on a sunday.

 

[Kyanche]

Why is it every time someone says they want to have a simpler vehicle that someone else has to accuse them of wanting to go back to the 50’s/60’s technology?

Diesel/gas vehicles were doing just fine until 2005/6 when the EPA went nuts with their ridiculous regulations.

I remember the little Mercedes & Volvo diesels from the 80s and early 90s. Those things would puke up black smoke everywhere and their rear end was always stained with diesel exhaust lol.

The early 2000s volkswagen diesels. Everyone thought they were the way of the future. As I recall, the diesel jetta got almost Prius levels of gas mileage lol.

They definitely didn't puke black smoke like the 80s/90s diesels did. But I can't remember much about them beyond that and the whole dieselgate debacle.

I suspect the simplest car is an EV with a good hardware and software stack. Holding my nose here, but something like a Tesla Model 3 is probably one of the simplest cars on the road right now.

"BUT COMPUTERS!"

Yea, this is where we fucked everything up. There should be (preferably open source) standards for computer hardware and software used in cars. Automakers don't want that because it's bad for business. If the engine and battery controllers were common and open source you'd be able to replace EV parts even easier than tuning the carb on a big block chevy.

 

[au176]

That's certainly possible. I know that none of the imported vehicles my lady has test driven or owned have had that feature, including her new Mazda, although their electric hybrids have it by default, for obvious reasons.

Just a point of info- my wife's 25 Outback has the start-stop, which I shut off when I drive it. (I hate that starter noise & feel when I take my foot off the brake.) A 24 Suburban that I rented for a roadtrip had it. My 21 eTorque has the "better" version, which I actually don't mind. I'm not saying that all vehicles do have it, but to reduce average "Fleet mileage", I'm surprised when they don't.

Maybe Mazda's average fleet mileage is so good, they don't need ESS to meet the standards?

 

[GabeBoyTheGreat]

Agreed.

I'm pretty sure, however, that Camaros didn't have it. Ditto for higher-end Mustangs as well as Miatas. Maybe even some variants of 4Runners and Tacos?

It was never mandated or required, but that's a recurring claim around here.

Shockingly, high-end sports cars (e.g. Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, etc.) seem to include it.

The software implementation was mandated if the auto makers wanted to tax credit for it. That is why there is no permanent disable option from the factory, because then the auto makers would not get credit for it.

Semantics aside, ESS implementation is a direct result of EPA actions, and now new EPA actions may reverse that.

 

[ngie]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm glad that the EPA is relaxing the "limp mode" requirements a bit. Not staying on top of things, only having 500 miles to get to a station and grab DEF seems like a really horrible place to be in. I've had this happen twice so far and it wasn't until I figured out where the damn info was buried in the console settings that I have been able to stay on top of it better and avoid getting into these scenarios. I spend a lot of time going up steep hills, so I tend to go through more DEF (and thus the mileage estimates aren't super helpful).

About the rest... fuel economy loss is bad, but I would prefer to breathe cleaner air over completely nerfing DEF. Putting distilled water/cat piss in my tank and not having to deal with acid rain/being able to breathe is always nice. I just wish the DEF containers didn't all come packaged with the hoses/plastic around the hoses/cardboard (more unnecessary capitalism produced waste).

<rant>
I live in the PNW.

I was happy to nix the emissions requirements a bit a decade ago--I don't have to make special trips to go to state mandated measuring stations and pay a fee for someone to put a CO* sensor near my tailpipe anymore. However, I haven't been incredibly happy in all of the crap emissions vehicles I've seen running around this state since then (so many vehicles of all flavors been running around blowing blue smoke everywhere). A lot of folks aren't doing the due diligence of keeping their vehicles in working condition when driving them (I don't want to speculate on the why: I'm sure there are a variety of valid and invalid reasons).

In this day and age it seems like a lot of drivers (gas and diesel alike) seem to sit in parking lots and by the side of the road, idling while checking their phone. A guess it says something when a society is more willing to live with polluting over the longterm (f'ing up breathability, their kids' futures, birth rates, etc) to answer a call/text/or check notifications, instead of being slightly uncomfortable (or better yet: prepared for the cold/heat).
</rant>

 

[Ratbert]

The software implementation was mandated if the auto makers wanted to tax credit for it.

You're using the term mandated while saying it wasn't mandated? That's an interesting choice.

To be clear: there are vehicles that never had it. That's an obvious indication that it was never mandated.

 

[Ratbert]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm glad that the EPA is relaxing the "limp mode" requirements a bit. Not staying on top of things, only having 500 miles to get to a station and grab DEF seems like a really horrible place to be in. I've had this happen twice so far and it wasn't until I figured out where the damn info was buried in the console settings that I have been able to stay on top of it better and avoid getting into these scenarios. I spend a lot of time going up steep hills, so I tend to go through more DEF (and thus the mileage estimates aren't super helpful).

About the rest... fuel economy loss is bad, but I would prefer to breathe cleaner air over completely nerfing DEF. Putting distilled water/cat piss in my tank and not having to deal with acid rain/being able to breathe is always nice. I just wish the DEF containers didn't all come packaged with the hoses/plastic around the hoses/cardboard (more unnecessary capitalism produced waste).

<rant>
I live in the PWN.

I was happy to nix the emissions requirements a bit a decade ago--I don't have to make special trips to go to state mandated measuring stations and pay a fee for someone to put a CO sensor near my tailpipe anymore. However, I haven't been incredibly happy in all of the crap emissions vehicles I've seen running around this state since then (so many vehicles of all flavors been running around blowing blue smoke everywhere). A lot of folks aren't doing the due diligence of keeping their vehicles in working condition when driving them (I don't want to speculate on the why: I'm sure there are a variety of valid and invalid reasons).

In this day and age it seems like a lot of drivers (gas and diesel alike) seem to sit in parking lots and by the side of the road, idling while checking their phone. A guess it says something when a society is more willing to live with polluting over the longterm (f'ing up breathability, their kids' futures, birth rates, etc) to answer a call/text/or check notifications, instead of being slightly uncomfortable (or better yet: prepared for the cold/heat).
</rant>

You're the first person I've heard complain about the 500 mile warning being too short. That's a lot of passed gas stations / parts stores unless you're heading to the Arctic.

 

[GabeBoyTheGreat]

You're using the term mandated while saying it wasn't mandated? That's an interesting choice.

To be clear: there are vehicles that never had it. That's an obvious indication that it was never mandated.

You misread my post. The software implementation was mandated/required, if you are going to use ESS to earn the tax credits. The inclusion of ESS in the vehicle was NOT mandated.

This is a legitimate question: why are you getting hung up over the term "mandate" while ignoring the main point of my post:

"Semantics aside, ESS implementation is a direct result of EPA actions, and now new EPA actions may reverse that."

It is completely illogical and distracts from the actual topic. I am genuinely curious why you are getting so hung up on it.

 

[ngie]

The software implementation was mandated if the auto makers wanted to tax credit for it. That is why there is no permanent disable option from the factory, because then the auto makers would not get credit for it.

That's really stupid. Implementing stuff like that in software makes it easier for factories and other larger entities to mod without hardware revisions, but it makes needing a more powerful/expensive to replace ECU more necessary, and ultimately results in less than ideal implementations (don't get me started on RTOSes).

With how much time I've spent in the software industry, I don't trust software/firmware that gets shipped out the door to not be absolutely on fire (especially this day in age with AI coding agents, companies rushing crap out the door to expand their profits, etc). I would not trust a new major firmware released from the manufacturer for at least 6 months (this new firmware is going to be a major change).

Hope y'all have fun with your OTA updates via uConnect (glad I disconnected that 6 months ago).

 

[Terrymo]

You're using the term mandated while saying it wasn't mandated? That's an interesting choice.

To be clear: there are vehicles that never had it. That's an obvious indication that it was never mandated.

Ok I didn’t want to have to say this, but the new forum rule according to Jay (that part is a lie) is the next person who says the “m word” as if it applies to start stop gets kicked in the taint. Well not literally…unless you are in a convenient driving distance from @Ratbert in the PNW

 

[ngie]

You're the first person I've heard complain about the 500 mile warning being too short. That's a lot of passed gas stations / parts stores unless you're heading to the Arctic.

500 miles is a best-case estimate.

• When you're heading up steep hills or a pass that value can easily drop to 50-100 miles per climb (depending on where you're driving) in the matter of 10s of miles.
• What happens when those gas stations aren't open (say you're getting home late from a trail or on a long leg driving through a desert for instance)?
• Also, what about "diesel deserts" (I was in an area this past year where there were zero open diesel stations for 100~150 miles).

 

[GabeBoyTheGreat]

Ok I didn’t want to have to say this, but the new forum rule according to Jay (that part is a lie) is the next person who says the “m word” as if it applies to start stop gets kicked in the taint. Well not literally…unless you are in a convenient driving distance from @Ratbert in the PNW

Honestly, why does it even matter?

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