MS-12991 RECOMMENDED; API SN REQUIRED

[DewHawk]

I love everything that you said, very interesting stuff. The only thing I take issue with is what I've quoted above.

Outside of oil lubricating the pistons and cooling the engine in general, what does a product of combustion have to do with lubrication?

Serious question. Can a better oil actually improve the fuel system soot, regens are designed to reduce? And then on top of that, how would they increase a cleaner burn, which is how the soot is produced?

Not to prove you wrong, nor to detract from my previous questions, but could it be that you're driving style has changed when you started using this better oil?

Nope, fair question, not upset by it. Here’s the thing that became glaringly obvious though the more I dug into this issue.

Almost every oil I’ve looked at has some level of SAPS included in the mix (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus, and Sulfur). Something I came to realize is that most oils with low to mid SAPS content are typically endorsed to be used in vehicles with particulate filters whereas a full SAPS oil is normally only approved in vehicles that don’t have sensitive exhaust emissions components. A great example of this is BMW LL01 vs BMW LL04 designations. LL04 is approved for use on their diesel and hybrid vehicles that have much more complicated emissions control equipment whereas LL01 isn’t.

SAPS content is a careful balance though. We can’t run a low SAPS oil in these engines without running a risk to the longevity of internal component life span. On the flip side, a full SAPS blend has so many byproducts to reduce engine wear and tear that it inherently produces more soot that will clog emissions components faster than the systems can realistically handle without accelerated wear and tear.

Someone somewhere is of the opinion that MS-12991 is a specific designation that outlines a SAPS content tolerance that these engines are best suited for without burning up the emissions equipment early. In reality, there’s been zero evidence produced anywhere that I can find that actually tells us what the standards are for this specific rating. Just short of asking an engineer at VM Motori, good luck finding it. Hence why so many ram EcoDiesel owners have been experimenting with different oils to try and find a proper balance that’s better than what the owners manual recommends. The leading theory so far is that Jeep was dead set on finding an oil that wouldn’t lead to catastrophic bearing failure like gen 2 dealt with and still remain within the scope of reasonable ash accumulation for the emissions equipment to handle on its own.

So what the hell does any of this mean? It’s the SA part of SAPS that’s the real killer here. The sulphated ash content of the oil circulating in the emissions equipment builds up in the DPF over time and binds to soot like a fat kid on a cake. The more sulphated ash in your oil, the more likely it is to stick to the soot being produced from the combustion process getting blown into the DPF, EGR, etc.

I thought it was all BS internet nonsense until I started rotating oils to see if it was true. Castrol Euro for instance has GREAT UOA results with the ram side of the gen 3 crowd, but in my experience it was an absolute nightmare to try and burn off in passive regen and active regen. I literally had to force regen twice while I was in Moab because of it. Never again. Switched to the hype train red label amsoil and viola, instant satisfaction after the first 100 miles of use. Not only did passive regen start looking like it was actually doing something useful for a change (burning as much as 30% soot in less than 20 miles) but my active regens went from basically every 7 days to every 21+ days.

I’m by no means some expert at any of this, but I can’t deny the results I’ve had in the last 2500 miles. It’s a night and day difference that’s got me convinced to stay the hell away from anything that’s not a mid saps oil. As long as my internals are happy at the end of this little experiment, I’ll gladly keep running oil that’s not on the approved list.

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[Deleted User 38384]

Nope, fair question, not upset by it. Here’s the thing that became glaringly obvious though the more I dug into this issue.

Almost every oil I’ve looked at has some level of SAPS included in the mix (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus, and Sulfur). Something I came to realize is that most oils with low to mid SAPS content are typically endorsed to be used in vehicles with particulate filters whereas a full SAPS oil is normally only approved in vehicles that don’t have sensitive exhaust emissions components. A great example of this is BMW LL01 vs BMW LL04 designations. LL04 is approved for use on their diesel and hybrid vehicles that have much more complicated emissions control equipment whereas LL01 isn’t.

SAPS content is a careful balance though. We can’t run a low SAPS oil in these engines without running a risk to the longevity of internal component life span. On the flip side, a full SAPS blend has so many byproducts to reduce engine wear and tear that it inherently produces more soot that will clog emissions components faster than the systems can realistically handle without accelerated wear and tear.

Someone somewhere is of the opinion that MS-12991 is a specific designation that outlines a SAPS content tolerance that these engines are best suited for without burning up the emissions equipment early. In reality, there’s been zero evidence produced anywhere that I can find that actually tells us what the standards are for this specific rating. Just short of asking an engineer at VM Motori, good luck finding it. Hence why so many ram EcoDiesel owners have been experimenting with different oils to try and find a proper balance that’s better than what the owners manual recommends. The leading theory so far is that Jeep was dead set on finding an oil that wouldn’t lead to catastrophic bearing failure like gen 2 dealt with and still remain within the scope of reasonable ash accumulation for the emissions equipment to handle on its own.

So what the hell does any of this mean? It’s the SA part of SAPS that’s the real killer here. The sulphated ash content of the oil circulating in the emissions equipment builds up in the DPF over time and binds to soot like a fat kid on a cake. The more sulphated ash in your oil, the more likely it is to stick to the soot being produced from the combustion process getting blown into the DPF, EGR, etc.

I thought it was all BS internet nonsense until I started rotating oils to see if it was true. Castrol Euro for instance has GREAT UOA results with the ram side of the gen 3 crowd, but in my experience it was an absolute nightmare to try and burn off in passive regen and active regen. I literally had to force regen twice while I was in Moab because of it. Never again. Switched to the hype train red label amsoil and viola, instant satisfaction after the first 100 miles of use. Not only did passive regen start looking like it was actually doing something useful for a change (burning as much as 30% soot in less than 20 miles) but my active regens went from basically every 7 days to every 21+ days.

I’m by no means some expert at any of this, but I can’t deny the results I’ve had in the last 2500 miles. It’s a night and day difference that’s got me convinced to stay the hell away from anything that’s not a mid saps oil. As long as my internals are happy at the end of this little experiment, I’ll gladly keep running oil that’s not on the approved list.

Damn bro, My nerd Nugget is blossoming right now!



On a more serious matter, very interesting. Now I'm going to go look up what the SAPS on Red label amsoil is compared to the Quaker State I use myself.

 

[BDinTX]

Found reading data sheets for various Motul oils.

The FIAT 9.55535-S2, T2 and GH2 performance level imposes the engine oil to combine both ACEA C3 standard and 5W-40 viscosity grade in order to perfectly lubricate some Gasoline engines of FIAT, ALFA-ROMEO, and LANCIA produced from July 2007.

The MS-12991 performance level mirrors these FIAT specifications for CHRYSLER vehicles.

ACEA C3 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Mid SAPS-Level, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable of using Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s.

 

[ChuckQue]

Found reading data sheets for various Motul oils.

The FIAT 9.55535-S2, T2 and GH2 performance level imposes the engine oil to combine both ACEA C3 standard and 5W-40 viscosity grade in order to perfectly lubricate some Gasoline engines of FIAT, ALFA-ROMEO, and LANCIA produced from July 2007.

The MS-12991 performance level mirrors these FIAT specifications for CHRYSLER vehicles.

ACEA C3 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Mid SAPS-Level, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable of using Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s.

So Motul is a mid SAPS? Northridge has a bundle Motul oil package for the diesel…might give that a try next oil change.

 

[BDinTX]

So Motul is a mid SAPS? Northridge has a bundle Motul oil package for the diesel…might give that a try next oil change.

Ya mid SAPS. I normally buy direct but it looks like you can save a few dollars shopping around.

MOTUL

From links on their website to buy a 5L jug
Motul Direct $52
Amazon $43
Summit $52

Then Northridge $55

8100_x-clean_5w-40_en_de_motul_17700_20240614.pdf


Oil analysis on fresh oil:

Analysis on first oil change with ~10k miles on the oil and ~40k on the vehicle.
They mistakenly thought it was a 5w-30 oil then corrected and resent the report. Still noted viscosity was on the low side.

I'm closing in on 7,500 miles with current oil and plan to change this weekend. Will send this in for another analysis. I'm curious to see if the viscosity still reads low. Depending on the results, may indicate whether 10k miles is an appropriate OCI.

 

[rock123]

Ya mid SAPS. I normally buy direct but it looks like you can save a few dollars shopping around.

MOTUL

From links on their website to buy a 5L jug
Motul Direct $52
Amazon $43
Summit $52

Then Northridge $55

8100_x-clean_5w-40_en_de_motul_17700_20240614.pdf


Oil analysis on fresh oil:

Analysis on first oil change with ~10k miles on the oil and ~40k on the vehicle.
They mistakenly thought it was a 5w-30 oil then corrected and resent the report. Still noted viscosity was on the low side.

I'm closing in on 7,500 miles with current oil and plan to change this weekend. Will send this in for another analysis. I'm curious to see if the viscosity still reads low. Depending on the results, may indicate whether 10k miles is an appropriate OCI.

How did your 8000 mile interval changes look in comparison (if im reading the report right)? Still been trying to determine what oil interval to use, but I do plan to just run cheapo Penzoil.

 

[ChuckQue]

Ya mid SAPS. I normally buy direct but it looks like you can save a few dollars shopping around.

MOTUL

From links on their website to buy a 5L jug
Motul Direct $52
Amazon $43
Summit $52

Then Northridge $55

8100_x-clean_5w-40_en_de_motul_17700_20240614.pdf


Oil analysis on fresh oil:

Analysis on first oil change with ~10k miles on the oil and ~40k on the vehicle.
They mistakenly thought it was a 5w-30 oil then corrected and resent the report. Still noted viscosity was on the low side.

I'm closing in on 7,500 miles with current oil and plan to change this weekend. Will send this in for another analysis. I'm curious to see if the viscosity still reads low. Depending on the results, may indicate whether 10k miles is an appropriate OCI.

I looked at Northridge and they no longer offer the bundle for that oil. It was oil and a filter for a good price. Oh well. I’ll order up some of the Motion for the next change after I use up the last of my Penzoil. Thanks for the info! The viscosity being lower is from shearing? I usually change at 7500 miles like you do. Wouldn’t fuel dilution contribute to the lower viscosity on the UOA?

 

[BDinTX]

I looked at Northridge and they no longer offer the bundle for that oil. It was oil and a filter for a good price. Oh well. I’ll order up some of the Motion for the next change after I use up the last of my Penzoil. Thanks for the info! The viscosity being lower is from shearing? I usually change at 7500 miles like you do. Wouldn’t fuel dilution contribute to the lower viscosity on the UOA?

It may have been from shearing, that oil change was at 10k so this next one might give a clue. Fuel dilution doesn't seem to be a factor, it should be less than 2, I was less than .5

 

[BDinTX]

How did your 8000 mile interval changes look in comparison (if im reading the report right)? Still been trying to determine what oil interval to use, but I do plan to just run cheapo Penzoil.

Haven't done that yet. Plan to do this week and the analysis takes a few weeks to get back.

 

[Kleiss1]

So is it Amsoil MS or FS?

 

[Deleted User 38384]

How did your 8000 mile interval changes look in comparison (if im reading the report right)? Still been trying to determine what oil interval to use, but I do plan to just run cheapo Penzoil.

Pennzoil and Quaker State are both products of shell, and depending what type of Pennzoil you use, it's either slightly better than Quaker State or significantly better than Quaker State. That being said, if you're not buying the Pennzoil Ultra, you might as well just save about 10 bucks per jug and buy the Quaker State cuz it's not that much better.

 

[Deleted User 38384]

Ya mid SAPS. I normally buy direct but it looks like you can save a few dollars shopping around.

MOTUL

From links on their website to buy a 5L jug
Motul Direct $52
Amazon $43
Summit $52

Then Northridge $55

8100_x-clean_5w-40_en_de_motul_17700_20240614.pdf


Oil analysis on fresh oil:

Analysis on first oil change with ~10k miles on the oil and ~40k on the vehicle.
They mistakenly thought it was a 5w-30 oil then corrected and resent the report. Still noted viscosity was on the low side.

I'm closing in on 7,500 miles with current oil and plan to change this weekend. Will send this in for another analysis. I'm curious to see if the viscosity still reads low. Depending on the results, may indicate whether 10k miles is an appropriate OCI.

My oil is pretty dark and polluted at 5K miles, I can't imagine how bad yours is at 10K.

Why not just hop down to a 5K mile interval and see what the oil numbers look like with that?

 

[Old Jeeper]

40k miles on the JLURD with Rotella T6. I also use Rotella oil in all my other diesels and Rotella in the Harley...it is widely used around here. And it's not too bad on oatmeal! LOL

When it comes to oil, read the story of Chicken Little (unless it's been banned by WOKE)

LOL, Brother, YOU NAILED IT! Shell T6...My lawn mower, chainsaw, Jet Ski, Ford 450 6.7 Diesel and anything with an engine.

WHY? Because the toughest standard is HD Diesels.

The other item that you need to pay ATTENTION to is Wt and the climate you live in!!!

 

[Deleted User 38384]

LOL, Brother, YOU NAILED IT! Shell T6...My lawn mower, chainsaw, Jet Ski, Ford 450 6.7 Diesel and anything with an engine.

WHY? Because the toughest standard is HD Diesels.

The other item that you need to pay ATTENTION to is Wt and the climate you live in!!!

Wt is Weight?

 

[BDinTX]

My oil is pretty dark and polluted at 5K miles, I can't imagine how bad yours is at 10K.

Why not just hop down to a 5K mile interval and see what the oil numbers look like with that?

I may get down to a 5,000 mi OCI but I want data to support wherever I land.
Plus, I'm already at 7,500 mi now so 5,000 isn't an option.

I've had a diesel of some type for the last 20 years and the oil always gets black quickly, I don't think that alone is enough to warrant an oil change.

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