MS-12991 RECOMMENDED; API SN REQUIRED

[Deleted User 38384]

This is absurd.

Sure, oil is oil. But it’s the additives that count.

Now, the engineer said “boss, ive looked at all the oils specs and found that the one that meets the performance requirements is an ms-12991 oil.” And the boss said “are you sure?” And the engineer said “yep, been looking at it for 3 days now. I mean, i can probably agree that something else will work in normal conditions, but then again, you never know what these knuckle heads will do with their ‘rigs’, so the safe bet is ms-12991.” And the boss said “ok, print it.”

at least that’s how it goes at work.

*disclaimer: i havent read the ms-12991 spec, dont really care too. Because, someone else did, over and over and over again. So i trust that it’s what i’m supposed to use, regardless if someone else is using cooking coca butter as lubricant.

Yeah, I mean I use the Quaker State MS-12991, API SN oil recommended on the list above. I've been using Quaker State In my engines for more than a decade now, It's cost efficient, and it meets the standards.

My biggest thing when I created this thread was cost-effectiveness. If you look at everything I do to my Wrangler, I'm always looking to save a buck. No intention of breaking my rig permanently, but if I can save a buck and get the same results, why not?

But yeah the Quaker State stuff meets both the recommendation and the requirement for a very low cost. So that was good enough for me. ?

Initially when I first got my EcoDiesel there weren't nearly as many oil options available for the EcoDiesel as there are now. Also too there was some confusion on this forum about what exactly the requirements were. You got to understand, there are legal ramifications behind wording in these manuals. They have their lawyers look at them before they give them out to the public. When they use a word like recommended, versus a word like required, that's something that they can deny warranties with. If they're only recommending you use something, you could take them to court and win. But if they say it's required, that means you'll void your warranty if you don't use that and something breaks.

So really I only created this thread so that everyone could be more intelligent on the issue and have a better understanding of what was actually required, versus what was just recommended.

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[ELJL]

Initially when I first got my EcoDiesel there weren't nearly as many oil options available for the EcoDiesel as there are now. Also too there was some confusion on this forum about what exactly the requirements were. You got to understand, there are legal ramifications behind wording in these manuals. They have their lawyers look at them before they give them out to the public. When they use a word like recommended, versus a word like required, that's something that they can deny warranties with. If they're only recommending you use something, you could take them to court and win. But if they say it's required, that means you'll void your warranty if you don't use that and something breaks.

?? i too struggled in finding an accepted oil.
Again, if you do as instructed in the manuals, they have no leg to stand on. In fact, quite the opposite!

 

[DewHawk]

I used Castrol 5w40. It meets the MS-12991 and AP SP marks. AP SP is the ‘replacement’ for AP SN and is a higher standard from my understanding. We’ll see how it does for the next 3-5k miles but so far it seems to be running smoother compared to whatever the dealer supposedly put in (I’m sure some of that has to do with me replacing the fuel filter since mine looked like trash).

 

[Deleted User 38384]

I'm coming up on my next oil change as I near 40,000 mi (5,000 mi intervals). I've been wanting to run Royal Purple this time around, because of it's gunk ridding properties.

It does not meet the MS-12991 specifications from Mopar, however it does meet the API-SP standard, which as it turns out after a little research, is a better more restrictive standard than API-SN. So basically if your Wrangler 3.0 EcoDiesel can run API-SN as a requirement, then it can also run an API-SP.

(Per The API oil classification website)

(Here's just a random Google article I found)

And here is the Royal Purple 5W40 SAE Full Synthetic European Formula performance advantages listing the API-SP classification.

Along with a (screenshot of the) technical spec sheet from Royal Purple for the SAE 5W40 European Formula.

And here's links to all of the places I got these screenshots from:

Official API Oil Classification Website

(As it turns out, POE.com is a AI chatbot article generating internet thingy, thus I have no link for you from them)

Royal Purple SAE 5W40 European Formula Product Page

Royal Purple Technical Data Sheet PDF


Y'all know me, I'll let you guys know if I have any issues and kill my engine!

 

[DewHawk]

I'm coming up on my next oil change as I near 40,000 mi (5,000 mi intervals). I've been wanting to run Royal Purple this time around, because of it's gunk ridding properties.

It does not meet the MS-12991 specifications from Mopar, however it does meet the API-SP standard, which as it turns out after a little research, is a better more restrictive standard than API-SN. So basically if your Wrangler 3.0 EcoDiesel can run API-SN as a requirement, then it can also run an API-SP.

(Per The API oil classification website)

(Here's just a random Google article I found)

And here is the Royal Purple 5W40 SAE Full Synthetic European Formula performance advantages listing the API-SP classification.

Along with a (screenshot of the) technical spec sheet from Royal Purple for the SAE 5W40 European Formula.

And here's links to all of the places I got these screenshots from:

Official API Oil Classification Website

(As it turns out, POE.com is a AI chatbot article generating internet thingy, thus I have no link for you from them)

Royal Purple SAE 5W40 European Formula Product Page

Royal Purple Technical Data Sheet PDF


Y'all know me, I'll let you guys know if I have any issues and kill my engine!

I'm still running the internet hype oil without issue. Regens are definitely not happening as often as they used to which is a nice change of pace.

Still racking up the miles so I can send it off for a proper UOA and see how things are doing inside. Shouldn't be long now.

 

[Deleted User 38384]

I'm still running the internet hype oil without issue. Regens are definitely not happening as often as they used to which is a nice change of pace.

Still racking up the miles so I can send it off for a proper UOA and see how things are doing inside. Shouldn't be long now.

I was going to run Royal Purple 0W-40 but because of the sizes available... I could either order nine individual quarts and spend like $80, or a 12 quart box for $130, or buy the 5 gallon drum for $280, I started looking into engine flushes instead.

Then I just happen to look at the Quaker State European blend 0W-40 that I normally purchase and I realized it also has the API-SP certification so I was like, "**** it, engine flush and my normal oil together" That way I only ended up spending $60 for the oil change instead of $100 if I went with nine quarts of Royal Purple.

I talk about the engine flush HERE if you're interested.

 

[JEEP4U]

OR

 

[Wrangler man]

I'm still running the internet hype oil without issue. Regens are definitely not happening as often as they used to which is a nice change of pace.

Still racking up the miles so I can send it off for a proper UOA and see how things are doing inside. Shouldn't be long now.

Been running the recommended Pennzoil Platinum Euro full synthetic 5W-40 after exhausting the Wave
program free changes. Now sitting @ 31,000 no issues. Recently purchased and also plan on using the Amsoil European Motor Oil. SAE 5W-40 for my next change which is every 5,000. Never heard or read anything but positive feedback from this manufacturer and its products. Consulted first with a product specialist/engineer over at AMSOIL. My hope is.... it's a "step up" for those like me, in for the long haul on the 3.0 EcoDiesel. If it were a Porsche 911s I certainly would never skimp on a lesser, less expensive oil. IMO my 3.0 is every bit as valuable because of the limited and discontinued production of all EcoDiesel Wranglers. Gearing 3.6 or 2.0s still don't render the same driving and perfect powertrain results and feedback that the 3.0 does. One only knows this by owning one. Only the 6.4 is in its league of powertrain perfection. The Amsoil being aprox. $30.00 more expensive than the previous Pennzoil I used, we shall see if it helps this Wrangler stay on the road a few more years.

 

[grimmjeeper]

Been running the recommended Pennzoil Platinum Euro full synthetic 5W-40 after exhausting the Wave
program free changes. Now sitting @ 31,000 no issues. Recently purchased and also plan on using the Amsoil European Motor Oil. SAE 5W-40 for my next change which is every 5,000. Never heard or read anything but positive feedback from this manufacturer and its products. Consulted first with a product specialist/engineer over at AMSOIL. My hope is.... it's a "step up" for those like me, in for the long haul on the 3.0 EcoDiesel. If it were a Porsche 911s I certainly would never skimp on a lesser, less expensive oil. IMO my 3.0 is every bit as valuable because of the limited and discontinued production of all EcoDiesel Wranglers. Gearing 3.6 or 2.0s still don't render the same driving and perfect powertrain results and feedback that the 3.0 does. One only knows this by owning one. Only the 6.4 is in its league of powertrain perfection. The Amsoil being aprox. $30.00 more expensive than the previous Pennzoil I used, we shall see if it helps this Wrangler stay on the road a few more years.

They do have a good sales team. Very convincing advertising.

But they don't submit their oil for all of the various tests to be able to be listed as compliant. And that seems a bit sketchy to me. If they're as good or better then they should be able to pass with flying colors. But they won't apply and take the test for all to see.

It's probably just fine. But I'll stick with products that are tested and validated.

 

[Wrangler man]

They do have a good sales team. Very convincing advertising.

But they don't submit their oil for all of the various tests to be able to be listed as compliant. And that seems a bit sketchy to me. If they're as good or better then they should be able to pass with flying colors. But they won't apply and take the test for all to see.

It's probably just fine. But I'll stick with products that are tested and validated.

Many tests have been performed. Including complaint tests.
"Independent Testing: Royal Purple vs AMSOIL
ASTM D6335 Testing
A third-party lab performed the ASTM D6335 Thermo-oxidation Engine Oil Simulation Test (TE0ST) 33C which simulates deposit foundation found in a turbocharger and is required for the API SN Resource Conserving specification. AMSOIL Signature Series performed 3.6X better than Royal Purple and 4X better than Mobil 1 Extended Performance.

ASTM D5293 Testing
Another important ASTM test is D52893 which measures cold cranking viscosity. Essentially this test determines how easily an oil will flow at engine startup (cold crank meaning the engine is not warm and has not been recently running). AMSOIL Signature Series was tested against multiple Royal Purple products (High Performance and High Performance Street) and came out on top, providing the best wear protection for engine components at startup. Lower ratings indicate less viscosity (thickness) and better flowability during cold weather startup."
??



‍

 

[Deleted User 38384]

They do have a good sales team. Very convincing advertising.

But they don't submit their oil for all of the various tests to be able to be listed as compliant. And that seems a bit sketchy to me. If they're as good or better then they should be able to pass with flying colors. But they won't apply and take the test for all to see.

It's probably just fine. But I'll stick with products that are tested and validated.

Been running the recommended Pennzoil Platinum Euro full synthetic 5W-40 after exhausting the Wave
program free changes. Now sitting @ 31,000 no issues. Recently purchased and also plan on using the Amsoil European Motor Oil. SAE 5W-40 for my next change which is every 5,000. Never heard or read anything but positive feedback from this manufacturer and its products. Consulted first with a product specialist/engineer over at AMSOIL. My hope is.... it's a "step up" for those like me, in for the long haul on the 3.0 EcoDiesel. If it were a Porsche 911s I certainly would never skimp on a lesser, less expensive oil. IMO my 3.0 is every bit as valuable because of the limited and discontinued production of all EcoDiesel Wranglers. Gearing 3.6 or 2.0s still don't render the same driving and perfect powertrain results and feedback that the 3.0 does. One only knows this by owning one. Only the 6.4 is in its league of powertrain perfection. The Amsoil being aprox. $30.00 more expensive than the previous Pennzoil I used, we shall see if it helps this Wrangler stay on the road a few more years.

Something to keep in mind as well is when it comes to motor oils and the quality of the oil that you're buying:

Brands like AmSoil rank much higher in every test I've seen of motor oils, and is most assuredly much better than the Quaker State oil that I purchase for my EcoDiesel.

That being said, they both state that their oil is good in engines up to 20,000 mi, they also both meet the API-SP standard which is currently the highest standard on the API certification.

That being said, Mopar recommends oil changes for our EcoDiesels every 10,000 mi or less.

And it seems most of us change our oil around every 5,000 mi.

So I ask, if you're purchasing a higher cost better quality oil and changing it four times as often as the max allowed by the brand your purchasing, and twice as often as Mopar recommends, what are you really getting for the higher price?

Outside of a heavily used race car engine, I don't see the quality of the oil mattering as long as it meets the minimum standards for mopar's requirements, when coupled with our more frequent oil changes which most of us seem to be doing.

So if you ask me, the guy's buying AmSoil or another more expensive brands are not getting anything better than someone like me who is purchasing 10 quarts of Quaker State for $40 bucks, other than doling out more money for each oil change.

It's also worthwhile to keep in mind that a lot of these tests which people do involve things other than putting the oil in an engine. One guy who's video I was just watching is purposefully causing bearings to wear down, outside of a very poorly designed engine, that's not a realistic test. It's great for testing the capabilities of an oil, but not for what oil is best for your vehicle. Your engine isn't designed to wear itself down, and testing for that only proves that the oil is better, not that the oil is better for your engine.

 

[Grayhound]

OR

I just moved to this oil

 

[DewHawk]

I did enough digging on the Ram Ecoboost forums sifting through all of the UOA’s that were getting submitted for the gen 3 motor before making my decision to give the red label ams a shot. Strangely the silver label stuff is supposedly closer in spec to what mopar/jeep recommends in our engines yet the UOA’s show the red label is consistently out performing it in the reduction of wear metals and contaminants.

I personally don’t give a rats rear who makes the oil at the end of the day or what it costs (I run LiquiMoly 10W60 GT1 in my M3 with their Ceratec additive every 3000 miles or less).
If the oil has the evidence from independent users to show it’s doing the job keeping my engine happy, it gets my business. I’m patiently waiting to hit the 5k mile usage mark to sample it and see what the results are before I make a final judgement. The fact that I’m already seeing a significant improvement in how often my jeep regens vs when it was running castrol euro is already a win in my book.

That all being said, I’m starting to get my curiosity peaked by Valvoline’s new restore and protect product line they’re starting to work on. If they release a 5W40 blend of it, I’d like to give it a shot and see what the results are.

 

[Deleted User 38384]

The fact that I’m already seeing a significant improvement in how often my jeep regens vs when it was running castrol euro is already a win in my book.

I love everything that you said, very interesting stuff. The only thing I take issue with is what I've quoted above.

Outside of oil lubricating the pistons and cooling the engine in general, what does a product of combustion have to do with lubrication?

Serious question. Can a better oil actually improve the fuel system soot, regens are designed to reduce? And then on top of that, how would they increase a cleaner burn, which is how the soot is produced?

Not to prove you wrong, nor to detract from my previous questions, but could it be that you're driving style has changed when you started using this better oil?

 

[Deleted User 38384]

I'm not asking questions because I'm trying to prove you wrong @DewHawk

I'm asking questions because I'm curious and trying to learn.

Not to answer my own questions, but here's some very interesting stuff I found.

This guy talks about DPF contamination of the oil.



And this article talks of how oil is the number one cause of DPF.
https://www.ccjdigital.com/maintena...-role-of-engine-oil-in-dpf-system-maintenance


I don't know if y'all have noticed this yet, but my goal for my Wrangler is to learn as much as I possibly can about diesel engines, and the systems that work with them, to try and guarantee a longer life for my EcoDiesel (because I'll never sell my Jeep), and to be able to cut out all of the BS and nonsense that may cost you extra money but not benefit you in the long run.


I like this knowledge point @DewHawk

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts in this thread. I'm learning new things!

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