Manual vs Automatic- What will you be ordering?

[MrJeepNut]

Not sure what happened with my comment but the bottom lines are my reply, not part of the quote.

Probably a missing [/QUOTE] somewhere. You might want to check out the "Preview" option under "More Options..." so you can see what your post will look like before it goes out to the forum.

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[The Great Grape Ape]

I own my son's Wrangler. Do you own your Dad's Wrangler?

So do you drive it for him too?

If it was about financing and not ownership/use then 2 new trumps 3 second-hand, but it's about experience with the platforms and modern transmissions. My old YJ has nothing to do with this discussion, just like a '97 TJ and 40yr old CJ doesn't provide insight into the current state of transmissions. However the recent JKs are quite relevant, and you only have one second-hand model for a year, with nothing to compare to.

In general, simpler designs such as a manual transmission are less prone to failure, longer lasting, and cheaper to repair and replace than more complex designs such as an automatic transmission.

In general those are previous generation transmissions' 'generalities', not the current batch of automatics. Just like fuel economy now favours automatics while in the past it favoured manuals because the gears favoured them (6 vs 4 then 6 vs 8 now).

Without comparable statistics to back up the durability/longevity, again the rest is theoretical. Some manual transmissions are terrible, some automatics are bullet proof, but they aren't all the same just based on type. To which you mention simolicity/complexity and reliability, meanwhile the NSG370 had an initial issue innit's TJs and required an admission from DaimleC and a fix kit. And with this next generation Tremec 3160 people think might be in the JL, it's already had a TSB recall notice for a sensor requiring a comolete transmission swap. Meanwhile the ZF8 is all over the place with a oretty solid track record (similar to the NAG1's history in the Wrangler).

The reality, if that it's more likely that any issues with EITHER transmission in the JL will likely occur after the powertrain warranty has long expired and the cost of maintenance will be equalized by the fuel savings (as seen in the Camaro which has worse spread and fp1st and OD than the ZF8).

Once again placing the most important difference not the theoretical future based on assumptions from decades ago, but instead the hard up-front significant price difference, which is pretty much the only actual 'fact' of the matter. That $1500 is undeniable, the rest of those auto vs manual assumptions are unsupportable.

 

[MrJeepNut]

If it was about financing and not ownership/use then 2 new trumps 3 second-hand, but it's about experience with the platforms and modern transmissions. My old YJ has nothing to do with this discussion, just like a '97 TJ and 40yr old CJ doesn't provide insight into the current state of transmissions. However the recent JKs are quite relevant, and you only have one second-hand model for a year, with nothing to compare to.

On the contrary, my 20-year-old TJ and 37-year-old CJ provide much insight into the longevity of manual transmissions. Both are in great shape and shift very smoothly. That said, the CJ's SR-4 sits on my garage floor right now because I'm in the process of swapping it out for a rebuilt T-5, both to get the extra gear and to avoid the SR-4's clunky reverse lockout mechanism. Try swapping any modern auto for a different one-- you'd need a panel of experts.

Meanwhile the ZF8 is all over the place with a oretty solid track record

Paraphrasing you from an earlier post, "without the proof, it didn't happen".

The reality, if that it's more likely that any issues with EITHER transmission in the JL will likely occur after the powertrain warranty has long expired

That's exactly the period which concerns me the most. These days I'm buying my Jeeps for the long haul, and I do most of the wrenching myself, so longevity and self-serviceability are primary concerns for me.

the rest of those auto vs manual assumptions are unsupportable.

That's just false, pure and simple.

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

Paraphrasing you from an earlier post, "without the proof, it didn't happen".

You first, still waiting on even a credible article from a respected source comparable to FourWheeler/JP that puts the JK's NAG1 or Jeep's ZF8s in that same light. It's been a week and nothing more from you than trail tales & anecdotes.

That's just false, pure and simple.

Then it should be pretty easy for you to support your claims with more than old wive's tales, but you haven't.
If it's that simple to prove, then DO IT already!

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

If anyone including the OP wants more factual information, one can always look at the KBB cost of ownership #s and compare some models with the AT and MT respectively. Unfortunately neither the JK nor JKU have that variation other than the RHD Auto to compare. However just for perspective, let's compare two well known options, the Camaro 4cyl an the Tacoma TRD Pro, the later being the closest to the Wrangler I could find.

Now look at the cost of ownership between the two groups ( take note the Camaro LT MT has 3 variants with the cheaper one discontinued last year). Looking at the cost of ownership of two AT vs MT (in that order) we see the Camaro AT is cheaper to own (even in the old cheaper to buy2016 model) and the Tacoma MT is cheaper to own.
So neither type is the outright winner there , and once again only a few dollas difference, not this big gulf that you're claiming for all ATs vs MTs.
That $1500 cost of acquisition is the biggest difference of all really, and who knows, maybe like the Camaro & Tacoma that initial difference is reduced or negated by the cost of ownership.

The old vs new MT to avoid the factual errors you make.

Looking forward to seeing something more from you than just more old wiv... man's tales.

 

[MrJeepNut]

You first, still waiting on even a credible article from a respected source comparable to FourWheeler/JP that puts the JK's NAG1 or Jeep's ZF8s in that same light. It's been a week and nothing more from you than trail tales & anecdotes.

Why can't you seem to get it through your head that I'm not talking about these particular transmissions? I've stated this over and over again.

Then it should be pretty easy for you to support your claims with more than old wive's tales, but you haven't.
If it's that simple to prove, then DO IT already!

If it's that simple to prove that I'm wrong, the YOU DO IT already! The above-referenced magazine article does NOT do it!

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

Why can't you seem to get it through your head that I'm not talking about these particular transmissions? I've stated this over and over again.

No you haven't stated is limited to outside that, which is the point.
We are discussing these specific option, because this is about as the poll says "What will you be ordering ?" ie ZF8 or likely Tremec 3160 (although I'd prefer a 6060 for torque handling and rev-matching capability, but the 3160 is lighter) and in context to the most recent models they would be replacing for people ordering.

If you want to argue old manual vs old auto, then sure I'll grant you that, but as I've stated from the beginning, that was then this is now where MTs have fiddly electronic bits, so if you want to imply that these future options are just the same as the past, then you'll need to support it. I'm not anti-MT, but you sure seem anti AT wanting to use outdated clichés to paint these future platforms that we're ordering as if they were examples from the 80s.

Like I've said from before you posted, I have BOTH, I like BOTH with all their warts that I know well, to which I am glad both will be getting the long overdue updates they both needed, as there are far better options out there for both, and I want those better options as I will be buying BOTH again in the JL.

 

[Billy]

OK boys simmer down!

Two words: DANCE OFF!!

 

[MrJeepNut]

No you haven't stated is limited to outside that, which is the point.

Yes I have, go back and read the post you originally objected to, it's very generic.

Manual vs Automatic- What will you be ordering?

We are discussing these specific option, because this is about as the poll says "What will you be ordering ?" ie ZF8 or likely Tremec 3160 (although I'd prefer a 6060 for torque handling and rev-matching capability, but the 3160 is lighter) and in context to the most recent models they would be replacing for people ordering.

You may have shifted gears (pun intended) into that specific discussion, but my original post never made any specific claims about any specific transmissions.

If you want to argue old manual vs old auto, then sure I'll grant you that, but as I've stated from the beginning, that was then this is now where MTs have fiddly electronic bits, so if you want to imply that these future options are just the same as the past, then you'll need to support it. I'm not anti-MT, but you sure seem anti AT wanting to use outdated clichés to paint these future platforms that we're ordering as if they were examples from the 80s.

I did intend to limit the scope of my claims to light truck transmissions, and you aren't going to find any "fiddly electronic bits" in those, at least not yet. That said, I don't think any MT is ever going to approach the complexity of any AT, because the AT takes on way more responsibility that the MT. The MT will therefore always have a much simpler design than the AT. I feel safe in saying that will be true for all time, because I think in the foreseeable future (< 20 years), all the engines/motors will go full-electric, probably one per wheel in an off-road vehicle, and the days of the automotive transmission as we know it, both manual and auto, will be over. There's a small chance that this thread may be dead by then as well.

At that point in time, however, I hope to still be driving my 2018 JL, with whatever manual transmission it ends up having, if the law of the land and the economics of gasoline allow me to do so.

Like I've said from before you posted, I have BOTH, I like BOTH with all their warts that I know well, to which I am glad both will be getting the long overdue updates they both needed, as there are far better options out there for both, and I want those better options as I will be buying BOTH again in the JL.

At least there's something we can agree on.

 

[JAY]

I think we all can use a or .

The passion being shown is awesome but let's try to refrain from getting personal.

 

[ThirtyOne]

Are y'all still at it? Let it go.

 

[four low]

YAWN. Pissing Contest over yet ?

 

[Izzy901]

Automatic. I can't even drive Manual.

 

[DarthMall]

YAWN. Pissing Contest over yet ?

I sure hope so. I think it's safe to say it is.

 

[Billy]

I sure hope so. I think it's safe to say it is.

So no dance off?

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