Manual vs Automatic- What will you be ordering?

Which transmission will you be optioning for?


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DanW

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I'd have to say vehicle weight limit and torque limit are the weaknesses.
The Shelby GT350 has 429lbs of torque at its peak. The Ecodiesel has 420, from what I've read. The 3.6 is way short of that, so how is that a weakness? Maybe it can't handle much of a towing load?
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jeppesen.io

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The Shelby GT350 has 429lbs of torque at its peak. The Ecodiesel has 420, from what I've read. The 3.6 is way short of that, so how is that a weakness? Maybe it can't handle much of a towing load?
Perhaps it has do with the low first gear? The JK has a 4.4 1st. Looking at the spec sheet, the lower the gear the lower the ft/lbs

http://www.tremec.com/anexos/TREMEC_TR-3160.pdf

It ranges from high 200s to low 400s. Also, the Wrangler has more weight to move around.
 

Billy

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DanW

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So, how does it handle the torque of the V8 powered Camaro and Mustang? I'm guessing that chart is for the Cadillac ATS version. It also says at the top, for reference only, not applicable to a specific application. That tells me that it can be tailored to a specific application, such as the GT350. I'm hoping that's the case, because the shifting feel of this transmission should be light years ahead of the current 6 speed.
 

The Great Grape Ape

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Remember FCA/Jeep can order a custom version of the 3160 with different gear ratios and spread, and also support higher GVWR, especially since they will likely sell more than all other variants combined.

However there are just limits to what can be done, and it will likely be a a slight trade-off, which FCA is aware of with their positioning of the diesel+AT.

As for towing and payload, it's likely going to be split from the ZF8 anyways, somthat was to be expected regardless.
 

The Great Grape Ape

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So, how does it handle the torque of the V8 powered Camaro and Mustang? I'm guessing that chart is for the Cadillac ATS version.
Chart is for all 3 applications, Caddilac, Camaro, and Mustang , and in that order IIRC

Torque numbers are guides, in the same way that despite detuning the export CRD Wrangler exceeded the NSG370's 370NM rating by 11% @ 410NM (full power 460NM on the NAG1)

While Tremec states custom configurations are available, it is still limited in that package, and expecting raising both significantly is unrealistic, slight boosts with still some offset is most likely.
 

DanW

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Is there another manual transmission design off the shelf or is it possible FiatChrysler or a supplier has developed a new one? What info made us think the 3160 is the one? Maybe they've redone the NSG370?
 
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The Great Grape Ape

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Is there another manual transmission design off the shelf or is it possible FiatChrysler or a supplier has developed a new one? What info made us think the 3160 is the one? Maybe they've redone the NSG370?
Primarily process of elimination of best candidates for the following requirements, light, great 1st gear ratio and gear spread, and ability to handle at least Pentastar torque levels.

The only things we know for sure are;

- There IS a 6-speed manual option
- It's currently only showing as available for Pentastar
- The shift pattern from the Spy photos from June 2016 that I mentioned in a post on the previous page with pic & link.
- It still mates to the NV241(OR) and whatever the Selec-Trac is in the Sahara (NV242?) so cannot be a transaxle 6MT.

The shift pattern in the spy photos excludes some options like the tremec TR-6060 which has reverse on the other side, getrag G56 has the Reverse in bottom left not top left, NV5600 reverse is top right (which isn't even flippable as Spy photo).

However, the TR-3160 which matches all the other criteria, can be configured like the Spy photo or like the current NSG 6spd shifter pattern.

Now the new Getrag 6MTI-550 also fits most of the bill with a ratio spread that can match the ZF8 (~ 8:1) , but I dunno the shift pattern, and I don't think it can be mated to the NV241 without a slight tweak to design.
However it's torque handling (up to 800NM) would exceed the TR-3160's and allow not only the current EcoDiesel, but also a refresh targeting Ford's upcoming diesel which is expected to best the EcoDiesel and be close to LandRover numbers. One of the few drawbacks is that the Getrag transmission is a bit heavier.

Personally I think it would be great to see this transmssion as the manual choice, as it has an option for a 7th gear, thus allowing for future additional OD for fuel efficiency. Realistically though the TR-3160 seems like the likeliest candidate.

Don't think they can redesign the NSG without updating the license, and it's a very old design. If they still had in-house R&D that would make sense, but at this point licensing someone else's existing design makes more sense.
 

Demonic

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As far as I understand the 3160 in the GT350 is also a custom version. Regardless, if they drop the 3160 in the JL and it feels half as good as the version in the GT350 that would likely be enough to make me get the manual JL.
Question from someone who knows next to nothing about rock crawling though - how is the manual an advantage in that situation since there's no part of the drivetrain that can be slipping while wanting the wheels to turn at an ungodly slow speed? Don't tell me you guys are slipping the clutch the whole time...
 

DanW

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The 4:1 crawl ratio in the Rubicon makes rock crawling easy, for someone experienced and skilled with a manual. It is not so good for someone neither experienced nor skilled. It goes SLOW, and the ratio is so good, there is very little slipping of the clutch. I never once smelled my clutch burning on the rocks in Moab. If you stop on a steep incline in low range, you just turn the engine off. To go again, just start it. No clutch slipping or disengagement. That's a nice feature of a Jeep. My 93 YJ did that, too!
 

The Great Grape Ape

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As far as I understand the 3160 in the GT350 is also a custom version.
Sort of, but then again with the small volume all 3 are kinda custom, it is the 3rd configuration in the list with the accompanying ratios.

However the JL would not only benefit from a different ratios vs torque configuration, but also it would be a 4WD implementation of the TR-3160, not that it's much of a challenge, however Tremec does separate the possible SUV variants in their literature.

Just looking at their recent literature, a new ratio has recently appeared in their SUV material with a similar first gear as the ZF8, me tinks ths might be the JL's ratios (the OD 6th is higher than the ZF8, but is still better than the NSG);
http://www.tremec.com/anexos/File/TR-3160-010408.pdf

(PS, 500NM torque rating)

Regardless, if they drop the 3160 in the JL and it feels half as good as the version in the GT350 that would likely be enough to make me get the manual JL.
It would be nice to see some of the features of the updated 6060 in there like rev matching, but at that point it would also be nice to see the added gear of the 6070 like in the Vette, unfortunately the 3160 does not have the incorporated speed sensors to provide this.
However the 3160 seems like a pretty good choice for most of the Wrangler requirements (other than diesel) while keeping it in line on all fronts including price.

Question from someone who knows next to nothing about rock crawling though - how is the manual an advantage in that situation since there's no part of the drivetrain that can be slipping while wanting the wheels to turn at an ungodly slow speed? Don't tell me you guys are slipping the clutch the whole time...
You will get a lot of differening opinions on that just like synthetic vs conventional oil , gasoline vs diesel discussions, but one advantage of a high first gear ratio and transfer case plus an engine with sufficient early on torque and low stall speed is the ability to brake-idle crawl to setup obstacles. With a tuner you can change idle speed as well as enable a crawl mode which changes throttle response. It still involves a lot of heal-toe and e-brake, etc. but if you do it often enough you get used to it. And Hill Brake assist helps a lot, and makes it much easier.
However, you can still mess things up and there is still a fair amount of stalling and clutch aroma in the air out of the trails for people still finding their comfort zones.

I prefer the recent auto-stick for tight trail stuff (especially going up/down the mountain in Winter) preferring the 2013+ NAG1 programming for crawling and the 2012 W5A580 programming for on-pavement manual shifting.
I am interested to see what the ZF8 brings to both crawling and more importantly descending with a 40% increase in the 1st gear over the NAG and 12% over the NSG, my only concern is the efficiency features that might counteract engine-braking.
 
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The Great Grape Ape

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Will post the new SUV imolementation Gear Ratio list here for easy reference without having to follow link.
That addition of a 5.00:1 ratio 1st is a big change and wasn't there a few months ago.

Gives same crawl ratio as the ZF8 and close to same spread (6.75 vs 7.8 compared to the NSG's 5.3 and NAG's 4.3 spread). Which also addresses the fuel efficiency drawback of the small spread of the 6060 as seen in the Challenger.

IMG_1257.jpg


http://www.tremec.com/anexos/File/TR-3160-010408.pdf
 
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