Manual vs Automatic- What will you be ordering?

[The Great Grape Ape]

3) I tend to buy my Jeeps for the long haul, and I think manual transmissions are generally more reliable and longer-lasting than automatics, and cheaper to rebuild when the finally do go kaput.

That would be OK is the NSG370 were a better transmission, but it's not. Out of the two I'd say the W5A580/NAG1 is more reliable and more robust, which is why it's nice to see a new 6-speed in the JL (was hoping for a 7-speed). The cost of a rebuild is definitrly cheaper on the manual, but that's negated if you have to work on it more often.

Heat is an issue, but the auto has had a cooler for years (longer in the Rubi), ut similarly how many times have you smelt clutch on the trail?

I've had both for years, and while the previous 42RLE auto sucked, the 5-speed that replace it is way better. I have even had the two different 5-speed programming (2012 Euro in my previous Rubi, and 2015 NA now), I prefer the shift points of the 2012 because it was more focused on ppwer delivery not fuel economy, and the auto-stick feature is better on the Euro too, bumping to the next gear of first tap whereas the 2013+ goes into manual mode then changes gear on second bump.

Of all the options slated for the Wrangler the 8HP75 Auto is the most attractive due to its much greater torque handling capability than any currently rumoured 6-speed variant, the Tremec 3160 would top out 200 NM / 150 ftlb below the ZF 8-speed.

I'll still get both, because I like rowing my own gears when not in traffic, but the era of their being significantly more reliability in a manual is long gone.

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[themachinehead]

Using the "Search New Inventory" tool on Jeep.com, and I was able to find 82 JKs and 172 JKUs with manual transmissions within a 200-mile radius of Denver. The dealer closest to me has seven of them on the lot. But as @Indio mentioned above, that may be a Colorado thing.

Haha I just found 11 within 200 miles, 3 at the dealership closest to me if I remove some of the filters. Must be a Colorado thing ; JKU I drove around while I was visiting down there was a 6 speed, and the one other Jeep I saw in tiny Elizabeth was a 6 speed.

 

[MrJeepNut]

That would be OK is the NSG370 were a better transmission, but it's not. Out of the two I'd say the W5A580/NAG1 is more reliable and more robust, which is why it's nice to see a new 6-speed in the JL (was hoping for a 7-speed). The cost of a rebuild is definitrly cheaper on the manual, but that's negated if you have to work on it more often.

Do you have data on this? I have read a lot about the NSG370, with some saying it's good and some saying it's bad, but it's all anecdotal. Obviously, those who have problems are going to complain loudly, but that doesn't necessarily mean the product is poor overall. I've never heard anyone quote failure rates, have you?

Heat is an issue, but the auto has had a cooler for years (longer in the Rubi),

One of the two overheating scenarios I reported in my original post was a 2012 JKU Rubicon. Admittedly, it was very far from stock, sitting on one-tons, 5.38s, and 40-inch tires, but still, it wouldn't have failed in this manner with an appropriately beefy manual (probably not an NSG in that case, though).

But similarly how many times have you smelt clutch on the trail?

Not very often... I'm pretty good with a clutch.

I'll still get both, because I like rowing my own gears when not in traffic

We agree here...

but the era of their being significantly more reliability in a manual is long gone.

But not here.

Regardless, I stated my arguments against autos in priority order, with number one, i.e. gears shifting when I don't want them shifted, being by far my biggest beef-- it's a show-stopper for me, regardless of the other two arguments. And don't say the words "auto-manual" please, because I had a Volvo wagon with that setup and hated it! Must have clutch!

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

Do you have data on this? I have read a lot about the NSG370, with some saying it's good and some saying it's bad, but it's all anecdotal. Obviously, those who have problems are going to complain loudly, but that doesn't necessarily mean the product is poor overall. I've never heard anyone quote failure rates, have you?

No more so than those who state things about Manual vs Autos based on outdated myths. I must have missed your reference material that you posted in some appendix. Bring your data, then we can compare. Trail anecdotes don't reach that level either.

Of course there's enough articles on the NSG370, especially now that a long awaited replacement is at hand. However the best are the ones that lamented this long ago yet it still wasn't updated;
http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/1311-manual-meltdowns-jeep-transmissions-we-love-to-hate/
"That said, today this transmission walks the walk of shame. We just haven’t had good luck keeping them alive, and they’re not as durable as the AX15s and NV3550s they replaced."

FourWheeler holds the edge in credibility vs either of us.

So those old wives' tales from the past don't hold true now, especially with how much stronger the automatics now are than the manuals, heck even in the current Wrangler the NSG370 can't even handle the full power of the Export 2.8L Diesel, so even just from a capability perspective they fall short. Same in the RAM with the 6.7 Cummins, and undoubtedly the same with the EcoDiesel in the JL/JT.

Regardless, I stated my arguments against autos in priority order, with number one, i.e. gears shifting when I don't want them shifted, being by far my biggest beef-- it's a show-stopper for me, regardless of the other two arguments. And don't say the words "auto-manual" please, because I had a Volvo wagon with that setup and hated it! Must have clutch!

I'm not trying to convince you, get a manual, I will be getting one like I already have.
However, your statements are outdated alternative facts trying to make 'manuals great again', and that needed to be addressed.

I have no doubt the Tremec will be a great update from the old & weak NSG, and I look forward to having it at the cottage, but it still won't be able to propely handle an EcoDiesel without castrating it, so it's still a weak link.

 

[MrJeepNut]

No more so than those who state things about Manual vs Autos based on outdated myths. I must have missed your reference material that you posted in some appendix. Bring your data, then we can compare. Trail anecdotes don't reach that level either.

Of course there's enough articles on the NSG370, especially now that a long awaited replacement is at hand. However the best are the ones that lamented this long ago yet it still wasn't updated;
http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/1311-manual-meltdowns-jeep-transmissions-we-love-to-hate/
"That said, today this transmission walks the walk of shame. We just haven’t had good luck keeping them alive, and they’re not as durable as the AX15s and NV3550s they replaced."

FourWheeler holds the edge in credibility vs either of us.

So those old wives' tales from the past don't hold true now, especially with how much stronger the automatics now are than the manuals, heck even in the current Wrangler the NSG370 can't even handle the full power of the Export 2.8L Diesel, so even just from a capability perspective they fall short. Same in the RAM with the 6.7 Cummins, and undoubtedly the same with the EcoDiesel in the JL/JT.



I'm not trying to convince you, get a manual, I will be getting one like I already have.
However, your statements are outdated alternative facts trying to make 'manuals great again', and that needed to be addressed.

I have no doubt the Tremec will be a great update from the old & weak NSG, and I look forward to having it at the cottage, but it still won't be able to propely handle an EcoDiesel without castrating it, so it's still a weak link.

In general, Mr. Ape, I must respectfully disagree with your conclusions. It is fair of you to claim that my evidence of manual vs. auto reliability is just as anecdotal as yours, or as that of Four Wheeler Network or whomever, but none of that makes for a definitive answer. I really didn't mean to sound condescending when I asked for evidence about the NSG370's reliability, I just wondered if you might have actually seen any, because that kind of data seems hard to come by. I guess that's because the only organization that would have a way of getting such numbers in statistically-significant volumes would be FCA, and they're not telling.

I am a JP Magazine subscriber, and I am well-aware of the Four Wheeler Network's thumbs-down opinion on the NSG370. While I respect their opinions in general, there are other reliable sources such as Novak that have good things to say about it. Also, the various Jeep and Wrangler forums seem to have very mixed opinions about it as well. One person says theirs has been flawless, the next says theirs is a pile of poo. I like mine so far, but only time will tell whether that opinion holds.

Even if I were to reach the conclusion that the NSG370 is bad, that opinion would not extend to all manuals, and the new JL one in particular (is it confirmed that it will be a Tremec?). Furthermore, I 'm having a difficult time seeing how a complex, computer-controlled, electro-mechanical device like an automatic transmission is ever going to match the reliability of a metal box with a pair of shafts, some gears and some sliders. That just doesn't add up in my mind, and probably never will.

 

[Jeepsterfreak]

Manual for me. It's a shame the dealerships never have any manual in stock though because I'll kind of be going in blind for what to expect from it. I


It's true. I've been trying to test drive a 17' JK manual to get an idea of what the JL transmission will be like and none of my local dealerships ever have manual in stock. They say you have to special order them and that they very rarely if ever get them on the lot.

I went shopping for 2016 JKU with the intent on purchasing a manual. After test driving a manual, I decided the auto is the way to go (which can be used as a manual). The JK shifter was long and the clutch pedal light. I've always driven manual cars and trucks but never a Wrangler. I actually had some trouble finding gears. From my research, I haven't found a short shift kit for the JK. Hopefully the JL manual will be much improved with shorter shifts. Will also depend on mpg. I'm looking for better fuel economy. Will need to wait before making a decision.

 

[TTEChris]

If the JL manual is anything like the JK then I will be going with an Auto. I have always picked Manual over automatic, but having owned a JK with both I would go with the Auto if they have the same flaws with the manual in the JL.

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

I am a JP Magazine subscriber, and I am well-aware of the Four Wheeler Network's thumbs-down opinion on the NSG370. While I respect their opinions in general, there are other reliable sources such as Novak that have good things to say about it. Also, the various Jeep and Wrangler forums seem to have very mixed opinions about it as well. One person says theirs has been flawless, the next says theirs is a pile of poo. I like mine so far, but only time will tell whether that opinion holds.

Which is exactly the point, it's like Wrangler roof leaks, those that have them are a vocal group, but they don't even seem to represent the majority in the forums, so it remains anecdotal, just like the claims regarding manual transmissions vs automatics.

You mention Novak (which I've used as a source for ratios and parts before), it is interesting as even they mention the initial service bulletin regarding the 2005 NSGs right from the start, but they are still rather non-comittal in their language, which might be due to their sources being Wikipedia and their own forums, not any harder data either. That they don't deal with the W5A580s means it's still kinds one-sided.

Even if I were to reach the conclusion that the NSG370 is bad, that opinion would not extend to all manuals, and the new JL one in particular (is it confirmed that it will be a Tremec?). Furthermore, I 'm having a difficult time seeing how a complex, computer-controlled, electro-mechanical device like an automatic transmission is ever going to match the reliability of a metal box with a pair of shafts, some gears and some sliders. That just doesn't add up in my mind, and probably never will.

It would extend about as far to other variants as the anecdotal evidence about automatics.

The Tremec while not being confirmed, is the likeliest candidate based on size, weight, torque capacity and observed shifting pattern, we'll know for sure soon enough. However even going with the latest Getrag option, it still puts it under the ZF and under the current EcoDiesel's torque numbers (even before any tuning) so still falling short.

As for whether a computer controlled solution being inferior to a few 'gears and some slider' , that wholly depends on how robust those parts are, and how much not having that computer in there keeps the parts from premature wear, as evidence by that clutch smell on the trail and in traffic, and it's easy to tell others' stuggles with the top down, just like it's easy to tell those who don't gear down (even with an auto) when going downhill. You can say "oh but I treat it better than that" , but that would be like me saying I drive better than the tool who burnt out his W5A580 on the trail with you.

The main point again being there isn't anything inherently more/less reliable in either platform just because it is an AT or MT, it's a sum of its parts, and while the NSG is arguably better than the 42RLE, that's not the case with the NAG1 which is very robust and has decades of reliability in the high performance AMG Mercedes , and Porsches, so not your average automatic by a long shot.

Again having both, I look forward to them replacing the NAG1 for the additional gears & spread it adds and the ZF has proven itself reliable elsewhere in the FCA stables; and I also look forward to a replacement for the NSG to reduce its pokeyness, it's habit of poping out when you don't expect it, and it's vibration while cruising on the highway. Although the massaging effect of that vibration likely is of benefit to old-timers with arthritis, so perhaps that's a potential drawback for the traditionalists.

Still don't know if I'll like the obvious shorter throws of the replacement transmission until I drive it, but I'm sure aimcan get used to it like moving from the YJ to a Mustang LX in HS.

 

[MrJeepNut]

It would extend about as far to other variants as the anecdotal evidence about automatics.

That includes your anecdotal evidence about how great automatics have become. None of this stands up in court.

As for whether a computer controlled solution being inferior to a few 'gears and some slider' , that wholly depends on how robust those parts are, and how much not having that computer in there keeps the parts from premature wear

It is fine with me if you wish to put your faith in a complex, computer-controlled device when driving on rough trails in very remote places. I prefer put mine in a simple mechanical metal box.

You can say "oh but I treat it better than that" , but that would be like me saying I drive better than the tool who burnt out his W5A580 on the trail with you.

There is no call for insults here. That "tool" didn't burn out his slushbox, it simply overheated, went into limp mode for a while, eventually cooled down, and started working normally again. A similar thing happened during the other incident I reported. My friend's Toyota Sequoia trans overheated, the dashboard started flashing warnings and making noises, he shut it down, we waited a while, and moved on. Neither vehicle was being abused in any way.

I also look forward to a replacement for the NSG to reduce its pokeyness, it's habit of poping out when you don't expect it, and it's vibration while cruising on the highway.

Haven't experienced any of these symptoms in my NSG yet, but I've only had it for a year. My only real complaint is that with 3.21 gearing, 6th gear can't handle the slightest hill, even with stock tires, but that's not the fault of the transmission.

Still don't know if I'll like the obvious shorter throws of the replacement transmission until I drive it, but I'm sure aimcan get used to it like moving from the YJ to a Mustang LX in HS.

I prefer more of a truck-like feel for my Jeeps, but my guess is that the new one will be OK.

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

That includes your anecdotal evidence about how great automatics have become. None of this stands up in court.

Nor does your statements, so baring any statistically significant proof on your part, then they are equal until you prove otherwise.

It is fine with me if you wish to put your faith in a complex, computer-controlled device when driving on rough trails in very remote places. I prefer put mine in a simple mechanical metal box.

That's fine, but you'll be driving a TJ then, because whether a JK or a JL you'll be driving a computer controlled engine, more so on the JL with the added VVL, EGR and ESS as part of the additional engine features.
I'm just not going to curmudgeon it by fearing the new-fangled mystical magic boxes.
Would you still hand-crank your engine, because those starter motors add complexity?

Also if we're going to compare anecdotal suppositions about reliability of a new and unproven manual transmission versus a well known reliable auto, then lets apply that generalization with the ZF8 you'll have saved enough in fuel costs (which are statistically significant according to the EPA) to cover the difference in maintenance costs. Heck you could probably buy a whole new replacement auto transmission from those savings by the time it fails or you rebuild that manual.

There is no call for insults here. That "tool" didn't burn out his slushbox, it simply overheated, went into limp mode for a while, eventually cooled down, and started working normally again. A similar thing happened during the other incident I reported. My friend's Toyota Sequoia trans overheated, the dashboard started flashing warnings and making noises, he shut it down, we waited a while, and moved on. Neither vehicle was being abused in any way.

Really? I mean REALLY, again with the anecdotal and mock indignation.
Video with OBDII data, or it never happened, that simple.

Haven't experienced any of these symptoms in my NSG yet, but I've only had it for a year.

Again.. REALLY !?! Glad your anecdoal experience is so extensive.
Yeah, this is my 8th year with my second NSG 370 (first was a 2010 JKX), and my 7th year with my third W5A580/NAG1 (prev 2012 JKUR and first in 2011 GC) and a previously a 42RLE in a 2009 JKU Sahara, and surpringly neither the autos nor the manuals failed, but they all had their quirks.

My only real complaint is that with 3.21 gearing, 6th gear can't handle the slightest hill, even with stock tires, but that's not the fault of the transmission.

Fault of the transmission, no; but function of the gearing and spread in the transmission, most definitely.

The ZF 8 speeds will not only have a larger/shorter first gear & crawl ratio, but also a longer/lower final OD gear ratio (even 7th is lower than the nsg370) with a significantly wider overall spread, meaning it won't stuggle so much with either hills or loads.

And that's one of the biggest problems with the JL sticking with a 6-speed manual, the ratios and spreads on the possible replacement candidates aren't as good as even the NSG370, let alone the ZF8, meaning the final draw gulf that greatly favoured the manual transmission in the past will swing heavily in the other direction, where crawl ratios and final drive fuel economy ratios will so heavily favour the ZF8 that axle equivalency for the MT to match the 3.73 AT would require a 4.10 for trail crawling and type selection, and a 3.21 axle for highway / roadtrip numbers to be similar, so those previos MT benefits get displace by the ZF8.

 

[MrJeepNut]

(Stuff deleted...)

Wow. I thought this discussion would start to cool down by now, but instead it seems to be heating up just like, um, an automatic transmission I was expecting the point about the computer-controlled engine, and I have a different view on that, but... nevermind. I'm quitting now because I'm sure others are getting bored of this. Neither of us is going to convince the other of anything here. Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

I don't need convincing, I'm buying Both, because I like Both, for different reasons; despite either's faults or benefits (that I've actually experienced, not just theorized after limited ownership of just one for one year).

You're the one with an unproven/unsupported theory you're using to justify your preference.

SOoo as the sun set in the West, in the end nothing was changed or proven, exposing the reality that both are far more alike than disimillar regardless of anecdotal evidence to the contrary, which is the moral of the story after all.

 

[DarthMall]

I went shopping for 2016 JKU with the intent on purchasing a manual. After test driving a manual, I decided the auto is the way to go (which can be used as a manual). The JK shifter was long and the clutch pedal light. I've always driven manual cars and trucks but never a Wrangler. I actually had some trouble finding gears. From my research, I haven't found a short shift kit for the JK. Hopefully the JL manual will be much improved with shorter shifts. Will also depend on mpg. I'm looking for better fuel economy. Will need to wait before making a decision.

For me it's mostly the Initial cost for the Automatic and the price to repair that is steering me away. First off it's an additional $1500 to even get the automatic in the first place and secondly if it breaks I don't have the knowledge or time to fix it and I'm not about to pay someone $5000 to fix it for me. Manual trannies on the other even if they are not as good as an automatic are much easier to fix if they fail. My trucks manual transmission just went out and I was able to rebuild it with simple hand tools following instructions online. The total repair cost for me was just $276. If I had an automatic transmission, I would not have been able to fix it myself. Just my two cents and why I will be getting the manual transmission option in my JLU

 

[WXman]

I've owned dozens of vehicles with stick and auto both. I've owned two JKU's, one with auto and one with stick. I'll be getting the auto from now on.

The advantages of the automatic are too numerous to list. Remote start capability, higher resale value, easier to drive in the city, more control on the trail, greater range of ratios with the 8-speed vs. the 6 speed manual, no clutch replacements, higher torque capacity, can still be manually shifted, don't have to use the parking brake every single time you park the thing (although for safety you should), etc. etc.

The upcharge for the auto on Wrangler is insane though. I'll agree there. Especially since the one currently used is an ancient Mercedes design.

 

[four low]

Wow. I thought this discussistressfuld start to cool down by now, but instead it seems to be heating up just like, um, an automatic transmission I was expecting the point about the computer-controlled engine, and I have a different view on that, but... nevermind. I'm quitting now because I'm sure others are getting bored of this. Neither of us is going to convince the other of anything here. Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

The Ape has no Rev Limiter. Every Forum has at least one, easier and less stressful to scroll on down to next post.

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