Jeep snobbery - RANT

cosine

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i've noticed a wide range of wrangler drivers from mall crawler to hardcore trail bashers, however i dont think its "down grading" the wrangler image. yes a high percentage of wrangler drivers doesnt understand the true utilitarian of what a wrangler can do. they got it because its cool. most of the wrangler guys around here tends to gravitate to wrangler owners that uses the wrangler for its purpose from everyday driving to weekend trail runs. i do see a group of rubi owners that will never see the trails, hell wont take it out in the snow storm. their only reason in owning a rubi is because its cool. the sahara is a common model that i see because it fits the average joe/jane as there everyday vehicle. nothing wrong with that because it fits them for comfort and winter driving. the sport owners are also a daily driver, but some are used as a second vehicle.

i went with a base model 2 door sport for several reason. i didnt want the bells and whistles and its a great all arounf jeep to start with in building it to my personal taste and set up as multi purpose wrangler. yeah i could go with a rubi, and looked at on but didnt bother getting it. the main reason was the price. dont get me wrong here, i can afford one. i just cant see spending $50k on one. the other reason was that theres way too much bells and whistles on it, even on a base model rubi. with the sport i can add all the necessary stuff like lockers, quick dis connects, winch, etc. by going this route, it will be far cheaper then a rubi.

i've had people come up to me and ask why i got a wrangler and when they found out its a base model sport, they were like wow. then tell me that they have a sahara because they cant live without all the options, but still cant figure out how to use the 4 wheel drive. they dont like the wrangler because it doesnt work well in the snow. the flip side, i've had old timers come up and look my jl and comment on how well that jeep is still keeping the traditional wrangler looks and function of what the wrangler is all about. they also told me that they owned wranglers dated back to the willys.





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Kluk Ztopolovky

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This is going to ruffle some feathers, but here it goes nonetheless.

I have owned 9 Wranglers over a 12-year period; a mix of Saharas and Rubicons, 2-doors and 4-doors, soft tops and hardtops, manuals and automatics. I have taken them to the beach, to the mountains, to the desert, to work, to the mall and to National Parks. I have driven them in snow, in the rain, over ice, rocks and sand dunes; in July 120 degrees in Death Valley and in -25 degrees in January in Colorado.

Eight of those Wranglers were JKs. My first one was a 2008 Sahara I bought used: it was a base with a 6-speed manual and a soft top, but I was hooked. At one time I owned two of them side-by-side: one was a 2-door Rubicon for the trails; the other was a 4-door Sahara for long road trips in winter. What I love about Wranglers is that I can pack and go at any time, any time of year, without concern for the terrain or the weather; I just know my Jeep will get me there and back.

My last JK was a top-of-the-line 2018 JKUR Recon. It was the most expensive Wrangler I ever bought but it was a complete disappointment: the assembly quality was terrible; it rattled and squeaked; the body panels were grossly misaligned; the ride was harsh. To make matters worse, my local dealer was a total dickhead with the warranty. Hardly what you would expect from a $52,000 price tag —even after having owned several JKs before. In hindsight, it was a mistake buying that last Rubicon.

When I shopped for a JL I test drove a dozen of them; a mix of Rubicons and Saharas, 2-doors and 4-doors; manual and automatic. I had relocated from California to Washington so I found myself doing less extreme off-roading, but more extreme weather. The availability of Selec-Trac was more appealing than a swaybar disconnect or lockers; and after the harsh ride on that JK Recon, comfort gained importance.

I found a sweet deal on an unsold 2018 Sahara sitting 1,000 miles away. I picked it up almost a year ago: the Selec-Trac is just awesome in the snow; the drive and ride is refined and comfortable; it can tackle the off-road trails around here with ease; the fit-and-finish is excellent, and it’s been totally trouble-free so far. I am tickled happy with it.

However, I find something’s fundamentally changed in the Jeep community with the advent of JL. Perhaps the steep new prices make JLs more “precious.” Or JL is attracting a greater proportion of first-time Jeep buyers who don’t know the Wrangler “code” yet. Or FCA has gone a bit overboard with all the “Jeep imagery” and turned Wrangler into a bit of a status symbol. Whatever the reason, I find it is now common to be looked down upon for not driving the “right” type of Wrangler. I now have to justify at every turn why I drive a Sahara. Some may not even realize it, but Sahara owners regularly get accused of being poor drivers, bad off-roaders, mall crawlers, even poseurs, all because we drive a Sahara. Ironically, half the time we get lectured by Rubicon owners who never even take their Jeeps off-road. I try not to be over sensitive to it, but it is a bit weird.

Do Sport owners get this too?

One of the nice things of being part of the Jeep community was the feeling of close camaraderie, no matter what Wrangler you drove. I never felt I had to justify to anyone that I drove a Sahara or a 2-door. A Wrangler was a Wrangler and that was that.

Feel free to reply, agree, disagree, joke, flame, share your hypothesis, but please let’s keep it civil.
your story reads really really well and I wonder if you in reality haven't been driving volvos all these years :)
 

Notorious

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What exactly are the 'consequences' of voicing unpopular opinions in person? ;) Hopefully all of us were taught the age old adage of "sticks and stones".:like:
The consequences depend on how the unpopular opinion is expressed. There are tactful ways of conveying displeasure in something as opposed to resorting to ridicule, name calling and insults to express that opinion.
 

Kluk Ztopolovky

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It's pretty ironic when Boomers and Gen-X folks talk so much trash against the millennials. After all, it was their shit parenting which produced that generation and they are also the ones who invented the participation trophy... Just sayin' ;)
you know I think the traditional parenting role was gradulay disolved in our parents by modern lifestyle and governance politics of endless regulations and creepy social supervisions
 

Sean K.

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The consequences depend on how the unpopular opinion is expressed. There are tactful ways of conveying displeasure in something as opposed to resorting to ridicule, name calling and insults to express that opinion.
My point is simply that no matter how offensive something someone says is deemed, violence is only called for if a credible physical threat is conveyed via the spoken word.

I fully realize that will be anathema to the bravado and pride of most people.

"Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom. "
 

GonnaGetLost

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Ok, so let me get this straight...
1.) New Forum member = :movember:
2.) 1st time Jeep owner = :movember:
3.) 1st Jeep = inexperience = :movember:
4.) 1st Jeep trim Rubi = :movember:
5.) 2.0L Turbo w/ Auto = :movember:
6.) 2” Lift plans =:movember:
7.) 35” tire plans = :movember:
8.) Keeping Stock wheels = :movember:
9.) Minimal other mods = :movember:

Dang looks like I’m going to get all kinds of “snubs”. I guess I should go ahead and just cancel my order now...lol...

I was into off-roading scene when I was younger, from lifted 4x4 trucks to Dirt bikes to modified VW Baja bugs. After renting a Jeep in Sedona in 2015, I realized I had missed out on something much of my life that I did enjoy and don’t know why I ever got out of it.

Will I be a “hard core” off-roader ? No, but my plan is to and go see sights I could not have seen from the traditional tourist viewing platform. Did I need a Rubi ? Absolutely not, but for me it was the foundation I wanted to start with, especially since I only selected a few options (auto, trailer tow, cold weather & dual top (since I live in Ohio)) and have only a few mods planned. And as several before have said, “I‘d rather have it and not need it, than not have it and need it”.

I mean when we’re talking TOTAL $, what’s the difference between starting with a higher $ base and adding low $ in mods vs starting with lower $ base and adding high $ mods ? In the end it’s too much damn $.

Like many of you have said, it’s not about Trim “level” or mod list, but about the experiences, community, kindness and having fun (where ever you drive).
 

Arterius2

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FCA won't break down sales by trim. But when I was shopping for a JL, I found roughly 2 used Saharas for every Rubicon. I ended buying new just because used ones cost as much as new.

But again, I think a lot of it has to do with FCA flooding the rental market with JL Saharas
I thought I read somewhere that the ratio of Sports vs Sahara vs Rubicon is something like 4 : 2 : 1
Which sounds about right, it only feels that Rubicon was selling better because Rubicon owners are usually the loudest.
 

Revolution_322

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This is going to ruffle some feathers, but here it goes nonetheless.

I have owned 9 Wranglers over a 12-year period; a mix of Saharas and Rubicons, 2-doors and 4-doors, soft tops and hardtops, manuals and automatics. I have taken them to the beach, to the mountains, to the desert, to work, to the mall and to National Parks. I have driven them in snow, in the rain, over ice, rocks and sand dunes; in July 120 degrees in Death Valley and in -25 degrees in January in Colorado.

Eight of those Wranglers were JKs. My first one was a 2008 Sahara I bought used: it was a base with a 6-speed manual and a soft top, but I was hooked. At one time I owned two of them side-by-side: one was a 2-door Rubicon for the trails; the other was a 4-door Sahara for long road trips in winter. What I love about Wranglers is that I can pack and go at any time, any time of year, without concern for the terrain or the weather; I just know my Jeep will get me there and back.

My last JK was a top-of-the-line 2018 JKUR Recon. It was the most expensive Wrangler I ever bought but it was a complete disappointment: the assembly quality was terrible; it rattled and squeaked; the body panels were grossly misaligned; the ride was harsh. To make matters worse, my local dealer was a total dickhead with the warranty. Hardly what you would expect from a $52,000 price tag —even after having owned several JKs before. In hindsight, it was a mistake buying that last Rubicon.

When I shopped for a JL I test drove a dozen of them; a mix of Rubicons and Saharas, 2-doors and 4-doors; manual and automatic. I had relocated from California to Washington so I found myself doing less extreme off-roading, but more extreme weather. The availability of Selec-Trac was more appealing than a swaybar disconnect or lockers; and after the harsh ride on that JK Recon, comfort gained importance.

I found a sweet deal on an unsold 2018 Sahara sitting 1,000 miles away. I picked it up almost a year ago: the Selec-Trac is just awesome in the snow; the drive and ride is refined and comfortable; it can tackle the off-road trails around here with ease; the fit-and-finish is excellent, and it’s been totally trouble-free so far. I am tickled happy with it.

However, I find something’s fundamentally changed in the Jeep community with the advent of JL. Perhaps the steep new prices make JLs more “precious.” Or JL is attracting a greater proportion of first-time Jeep buyers who don’t know the Wrangler “code” yet. Or FCA has gone a bit overboard with all the “Jeep imagery” and turned Wrangler into a bit of a status symbol. Whatever the reason, I find it is now common to be looked down upon for not driving the “right” type of Wrangler. I now have to justify at every turn why I drive a Sahara. Some may not even realize it, but Sahara owners regularly get accused of being poor drivers, bad off-roaders, mall crawlers, even poseurs, all because we drive a Sahara. Ironically, half the time we get lectured by Rubicon owners who never even take their Jeeps off-road. I try not to be over sensitive to it, but it is a bit weird.

Do Sport owners get this too?

One of the nice things of being part of the Jeep community was the feeling of close camaraderie, no matter what Wrangler you drove. I never felt I had to justify to anyone that I drove a Sahara or a 2-door. A Wrangler was a Wrangler and that was that.

Feel free to reply, agree, disagree, joke, flame, share your hypothesis, but please let’s keep it civil.
So ill bite, its a combination of factors
1) saharas are a compromise trim level because your riding around in a vehicle thats designed to go off road but basically lacks the ability to mod for any serious duty use but still can cost in excess of 50k. It lacks dana 44 front axle in the front so By the time newbs realize locking it or changing gears is not a good idea because of smaller ring size its usually too late . Also complex computer controlled full time transfer case and front cv axles are just not good on any trail and will break or malfunction on any medium and up trail. Brake lock diffs will just smoke your brakes after a couple trails. Transfer case is 2:1 another downside. So basically yr driving a jeep for the sake of the image and admitting to the world you should probably be driving a kia telluride but you decided to purchase your way into a jeep to become part of a “community”, only to not be able to do what the community actually does.

At least you can take a sport which is cheap and swap in big axles and winch and still be cheaper or same as a sahara. The rubicons are so good now that with a 3” lift and 37’s and a warn 10k and snorkle you can do some crazy shyte that a JK couldnt even do. Hell , stock a rubicon is insanely capable off road. The lockers, low range t case, disco, and high fenders and 33”s really come together. Putting lockers in a sahara is dumb because yr spending all that money 2200 to lock a weak dana 35c plus you still dont have the low t case. Even re-gearing a sahara is dumb because running 37’s long term on a 35c is asking for trouble. Speaking of low t , its a feminine trim level as well... its a rich girls suv u see driving at the beach and you know her rich dad purchased it. And lastly this forum is not a community. Its mostly annoying first time jeep owners who never turnd a wrench in their life asking what lift for 35’s and complaining about steering. The gladiator forum is the same and maybe even a bit worse in that respect. I will give credit where credit is due, most dont install the angry grill , which is nice.
 

Yovwmon

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Mall crawler here! Hate away! I don’t give AF, love my Jeep and love most others too.
 

jakebrake

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Ok, so let me get this straight...
1.) New Forum member = :movember:
2.) 1st time Jeep owner = :movember:
3.) 1st Jeep = inexperience = :movember:
4.) 1st Jeep trim Rubi = :movember:
5.) 2.0L Turbo w/ Auto = :movember:
6.) 2” Lift plans =:movember:
7.) 35” tire plans = :movember:
8.) Keeping Stock wheels = :movember:
9.) Minimal other mods = :movember:

Dang looks like I’m going to get all kinds of “snubs”. I guess I should go ahead and just cancel my order now...lol...

I was into off-roading scene when I was younger, from lifted 4x4 trucks to Dirt bikes to modified VW Baja bugs. After renting a Jeep in Sedona in 2015, I realized I had missed out on something much of my life that I did enjoy and don’t know why I ever got out of it.

Will I be a “hard core” off-roader ? No, but my plan is to and go see sights I could not have seen from the traditional tourist viewing platform. Did I need a Rubi ? Absolutely not, but for me it was the foundation I wanted to start with, especially since I only selected a few options (auto, trailer tow, cold weather & dual top (since I live in Ohio)) and have only a few mods planned. And as several before have said, “I‘d rather have it and not need it, than not have it and need it”.

I mean when we’re talking TOTAL $, what’s the difference between starting with a higher $ base and adding low $ in mods vs starting with lower $ base and adding high $ mods ? In the end it’s too much damn $.

Like many of you have said, it’s not about Trim “level” or mod list, but about the experiences, community, kindness and having fun (where ever you drive).
you cancel it, and, you'll never pass mine on a trail, so you can snub me for driving some ugly old rat of a jeep.

where would the fun be in that?
 

jeepoch

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I've been asked a couple of times (in the 3 months I've had my sport s) by guys with heavily modded rubi's why I went the 'cheap' route ($40k + is cheap?). I got their #'s and sent them this:

If a stock sport can do that - do I really need a rubi? There seems to be some that think the sports are wildly less capable then the rubicon - it just ain't so...
Sean,

Totally agree to a point.

It is certainly the skill, or even just the willingness and confidence of the driver independent of the level of equipment.

I'd put my bet on a skilled driver in a Sport over a foolish idiot in a Rubi every time.

However, modding my Sport S has really made for a much more positive off-road experience for me. A lot can be said for higher ground clearance from a lift, more grip from wider and larger tires and certainly better traction through articulation from disconnected sway bars. The only thing I don't have (now) are the lockers.

And I have successfully performed various obstacles where some Rubicon's got stuck. Does that mean that Sports are better than Rubi's? Certainly NOT!

Do I wish I had a larger sized wallet to drive around in a bad-ass Recon? You bet. But, on the other hand I also take great pride in my ability to take my open diff Sport to the places I care to go. Difficult to moderately severe trails are certainly in my vocabulary.

Yet, I'm still humble enough to know that I'd struggle and get myself into trouble on anything really severe to extreme. The art in off-roading is to 'know when to say no' based both on your skill and equipment.

Again, I'm really (really) enjoying my lifted Sport S on 35s with the quick sway-bar discos. Will I ever want to go back to stock, nope not off-road. Will I ever trade up to a Rubi? Probably the very same day I hit the lottery.

Still, watching very skilled drivers in truly stock Jeeps is always something to behold.

Clearly however a Rubi would make an unskilled driver able to accomplish the very same things. Pick your Jeep: Stock, doable but harder. Rubi, far easier but $20 to 30K more expensive.

I'll certainly have more respect for the off-roading Sports, just for the added skill required. But, I'll always appreciate and learn from all Jeepers regardless of what they drive.

Jay
 
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aldo98229

aldo98229

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So ill bite, its a combination of factors
1) saharas are a compromise trim level because your riding around in a vehicle thats designed to go off road but basically lacks the ability to mod for any serious duty use but still can cost in excess of 50k. It lacks dana 44 front axle in the front so By the time newbs realize locking it or changing gears is not a good idea because of smaller ring size its usually too late . Also complex computer controlled full time transfer case and front cv axles are just not good on any trail and will break or malfunction on any medium and up trail. Brake lock diffs will just smoke your brakes after a couple trails. Transfer case is 2:1 another downside. So basically yr driving a jeep for the sake of the image and admitting to the world you should probably be driving a kia telluride but you decided to purchase your way into a jeep to become part of a “community”, only to not be able to do what the community actually does.

At least you can take a sport which is cheap and swap in big axles and winch and still be cheaper or same as a sahara. The rubicons are so good now that with a 3” lift and 37’s and a warn 10k and snorkle you can do some crazy shyte that a JK couldnt even do. Hell , stock a rubicon is insanely capable off road. The lockers, low range t case, disco, and high fenders and 33”s really come together. Putting lockers in a sahara is dumb because yr spending all that money 2200 to lock a weak dana 35c plus you still dont have the low t case. Even re-gearing a sahara is dumb because running 37’s long term on a 35c is asking for trouble. Speaking of low t , its a feminine trim level as well... its a rich girls suv u see driving at the beach and you know her rich dad purchased it. And lastly this forum is not a community. Its mostly annoying first time jeep owners who never turnd a wrench in their life asking what lift for 35’s and complaining about steering. The gladiator forum is the same and maybe even a bit worse in that respect. I will give credit where credit is due, most dont install the angry grill , which is nice.
See this is precisely what I am talking about.

As soon as you see the word “Sahara,” you start to use words like “newbs”, “dumb”, “compromise” and “girly.” Then you move on “Sport” and start spewing stuff like “cheap” and “shytze”. The richest part, IMO, is when accuse anyone who uses a 2.72:1 transfer case of being a poser who might as well be driving a Kia.

Then, when you talk about “Rubicon”, you start pounding your chest like a mating chimpanzee.

Finally, you go on to insult this community by calling everyone “annoying first-timer” Jeepers who “can’t wrench.” The disconnect in that logic is that precisely Rubicon requires the least amount of “wrenching” right out of the box.

So much for the supposedly Jeep camaraderie. The one consolation is that it took almost 200 posts for all of this to spew out. So there’s still hope.
 
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GonnaGetLost

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you cancel it, and, you'll never pass mine on a trail, so you can snub me for driving some ugly old rat of a jeep.

where would the fun be in that?
Oh no plans to cancel and I will not “snub” you. Won’t even snub the “high and mighty” ones, I’ll just shake their hand and say “nice to meet you, please step aside so I can meet someone willing to accept and teach me how to off-road”! Well I guess that might be considered a “snub” ... :LOL:
 

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