Hydrogen engines in the future?

[lorez]

Significant adaptation of infrastructure for broad ownership of electric vehicles is probably about the same as what is needed for hydrogen powered vehicles.

In the US, it's gonna come down to what would make the most money and which one can convince consumers to buy in early enough to socialize the risks (while privatizing the profit).

It'll be fun to watch people pick sides. Most of the people I chat with about it have range anxiety with electric, even if they don't need that range daily.

For electric to be really easy and really long range, they could try battery standardization and swap stations, but that would require cultural acceptance too.
I know it works with scooters in some places, that stuff goes like gangbusters in China.

Sponsored

 

[av8or]

IMO hydrogen is simply too expensive to produce, compress, store and transport for it to be viable for personal vehicles. Battery storage has proven to be fairly simple in comparison.

As a side note…..It’s OK to like both, ice and EV. So many here talk like we all need to pick a side and never learn anything new, and under no circumstances should one change their mind on the subject.

on that note I will predict a lot of minds get changed as more butts get in more EV seats. They are not just a little better. I’ve put 10,000 miles on my R1T in under 4 months and haven’t ran out of juice once, haven’t caught fire, or whatever other bad thing is supposed to happen when you buy an EV. It’s fantastic and I‘m pretty sure my wrangler will be my last ice vehicle.

 

[txj2go]

The reason hydrogen is being evaluated is purely fir a way to be able to reduce emissions

I understand that but isn't auto emissions a small part of the overall pollution? Trains, airplanes, industrial, home heating, electricity generation- don't most of these put out more than automobiles? Even if all automobiles became EV, AND electricity generation did not generate emissions, how much does this resist overall pollution? Are there other pollution sources that could be tackled easier? For instance if we are can generate more electricity without pollution shouldn't we be using that for heating and running more industry?

 

[Wabujitsu]

The eventual solution will be zero point energy, through use of the Casimir force. Theoretically, it is not subject to the law of thermodynamics, and is an infinite source of energy. “Eventually,” as in “not in our lifetime.” Thoughts on this, @jimcoffey62?

 

[Karnak]

I understand that but isn't auto emissions a small part of the overall pollution? Trains, airplanes, industrial, home heating, electricity generation- don't most of these put out more than automobiles? Even if all automobiles became EV, AND electricity generation did not generate emissions, how much does this resist overall pollution? Are there other pollution sources that could be tackled easier? For instance if we are can generate more electricity without pollution shouldn't we be using that for heating and running more industry?

I do think they are a smaller portion of the pollution problem , I don't have the answer to the other questions but do believe that if you know you can't attack large polluters rapidly because of too many impacts be it worldwide economy hits, problem with laws etc etc, then they are probably looking at options that can easily be done quick as well.

Hydrogen cars would possibly be one of those options that are in the short term, more achievable with less impacts, albeit, the infrastructure is probably their biggest challenge which is not insignificant.. but like I said, I'm speculating because I have no inside information or anything, just what I notice and what I think makes sense, I believe they are facing problems when talking about making the big polluters change or force them etc so its possible they're looking at doing what they can "easily" and hydrogen cars are probably one of the easy implementable options in the short term.

 

[Dusty Dude]

IMO hydrogen is simply too expensive to produce, compress, store and transport for it to be viable for personal vehicles. Battery storage has proven to be fairly simple in comparison.

As a side note…..It’s OK to like both, ice and EV. So many here talk like we all need to pick a side and never learn anything new, and under no circumstances should one change their mind on the subject.

on that note I will predict a lot of minds get changed as more butts get in more EV seats. They are not just a little better. I’ve put 10,000 miles on my R1T in under 4 months and haven’t ran out of juice once, haven’t caught fire, or whatever other bad thing is supposed to happen when you buy an EV. It’s fantastic and I‘m pretty sure my wrangler will be my last ice vehicle.

On the two groups of EV people that I dealt with (Chicago and MSP), two things got them into EV cars in the first place. They were making a statement (“I’m greener than you”) and getting free electricity/not paying for gas. At the time with few charging stations around, they were charging at their work using 110V outlets, which was OK because they were at work for 8+ hours. They liked the hybrid EV’s for commuting, and not having to go to gas stations very often. Full EV’s were fine until you actually had to go somewhere, then the recharging hassles were too much for most.

When it got cold, some were having to charge at home in a garage instead of the parking lot. Suddenly they were paying for their electricity, and they didn’t like it as much.

40% of people went back to ICE after 5 years or less. Once the newness wore off, the time involved in charging, finding a place to charge outside of home or work, and learning how much it would cost to replace batteries, they were done. Not to mention that some of them found out how much pollution was created just manufacturing these cars compared to an ICE car.

Of those 40%, some were open to returning to an EV in the future, but most were not.

You are correct that some minds will be changed, but a lot will not. IMHO, lifestyle is the biggest determining factor. EV’s are great for a short distance commuter vehicle in an urban environment, but outside that realm, it can’t yet compete with an ICE.

You have had your R1T for 4 months, it is still new to you. I would be genuinely interested in your thoughts in a couple of years.

 

[av8or]

On the two groups of EV people that I dealt with (Chicago and MSP), two things got them into EV cars in the first place. They were making a statement (“I’m greener than you”) and getting free electricity/not paying for gas. At the time with few charging stations around, they were charging at their work using 110V outlets, which was OK because they were at work for 8+ hours. They liked the hybrid EV’s for commuting, and not having to go to gas stations very often. Full EV’s were fine until you actually had to go somewhere, then the recharging hassles were too much for most.

When it got cold, some were having to charge at home in a garage instead of the parking lot. Suddenly they were paying for their electricity, and they didn’t like it as much.

40% of people went back to ICE after 5 years or less. Once the newness wore off, the time involved in charging, finding a place to charge outside of home or work, and learning how much it would cost to replace batteries, they were done. Not to mention that some of them found out how much pollution was created just manufacturing these cars compared to an ICE car.

Of those 40%, some were open to returning to an EV in the future, but most were not.

You are correct that some minds will be changed, but a lot will not. IMHO, lifestyle is the biggest determining factor. EV’s are great for a short distance commuter vehicle in an urban environment, but outside that realm, it can’t yet compete with an ICE.

You have had your R1T for 4 months, it is still new to you. I would be genuinely interested in your thoughts in a couple of years.

I don’t fall into the category of “ I bought my EV to be greener“ I bought it because it’s better. It’s already been on road trips and has towed my travel trailer on 500+ mile trips without issue. It charged just fine in my driveway in freezing temperatures in February. To keep repeating the same things about EVs that aren’t true isn’t doing either one of us any good. Maybe you should rent an EV for a couple weeks and then get back to us all on how it was. By the way I’ll be driving it all the way from Oregon to your state very soon to do some of the great trails there and I’m not concerned in any way about the trip.

 

[Dusty Dude]

I don’t fall into the category of “ I bought my EV to be greener“ I bought it because it’s better. It’s already been on road trips and has towed my travel trailer on 500+ mile trips without issue. It charged just fine in my driveway in freezing temperatures in February. To keep repeating the same things about EVs that aren’t true isn’t doing either one of us any good. Maybe you should rent an EV for a couple weeks and then get back to us all on how it was. By the way I’ll be driving it all the way from Oregon to your state very soon to do some of the great trails there and I’m not concerned in any way about the trip.

I never said you did fall into that category. Your claim of it being better is because it was better FOR YOU. That’s OK. It doesn’t mean it’s better for everyone else. An EV that cost $73K for a base model, and balloons up to $100k is completely impractical for the majority of Americans, not to mention that the majority simply can’t afford any vehicle that costs that much.

As a side note…..It’s OK to like both, ice and EV. So many here talk like we all need to pick a side and never learn anything new, and under no circumstances should one change their mind on the subject.

You posted this, but then you didn’t want to hear anything that ran slightly counter to your current point of view.

I am relaying data from ~15 years experience of many drivers (myself included) from many different brands/models of EV’s over millions of miles collectively. I have seen every issue that you claim isn’t true. Just because it hasn’t happened to you in your 4 months and 10k miles doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Which is why I said I would be genuinely interested in your thoughts once you had more experience in long term ownership.

If my post came across as being argumentative or snarky, I apologize, as that was not my intent.

BTW, here is an article I found by accident (no pun intended):

https://www.benzinga.com/news/23/05...of-a-minor-fender-bender-on-a-73-000-electric

None of the EV’s I dealt with had this big of a repair bill, not even close. I’m sure it has to do with the fact that the Rivian is so new.

 

[av8or]

I never said you did fall into that category. Your claim of it being better is because it was better FOR YOU. That’s OK. It doesn’t mean it’s better for everyone else. An EV that cost $73K for a base model, and balloons up to $100k is completely impractical for the majority of Americans, not to mention that the majority simply can’t afford any vehicle that costs that much.


You posted this, but then you didn’t want to hear anything that ran slightly counter to your current point of view.

I am relaying data from ~15 years experience of many drivers (myself included) from many different brands/models of EV’s over millions of miles collectively. I have seen every issue that you claim isn’t true. Just because it hasn’t happened to you in your 4 months and 10k miles doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Which is why I said I would be genuinely interested in your thoughts once you had more experience in long term ownership.

If my post came across as being argumentative or snarky, I apologize, as that was not my intent.

BTW, here is an article I found by accident (no pun intended):

https://www.benzinga.com/news/23/05...of-a-minor-fender-bender-on-a-73-000-electric

None of the EV’s I dealt with had this big of a repair bill, not even close. I’m sure it has to do with the fact that the Rivian is so new.

Well if you have 15 years of experience with EVs then you definitely have more experience than I do. I only became interested in 2012 when the model s started rolling of the assembly line.

Why do you suppose that with all of the inherent problems and failures of BEVs that they recently became the worlds best selling car over all ICE cars? Seems like the word would be out by now that they’re a waste of money. Yes I was being sarcastic.

If you’ve priced out very many new trucks or cars lately, you might notice the price is pretty close with similarly equipped vehicles, and the trend is BEVs are trending lower and ICE is trending higher. I’m not sure where this is all going to end up but looking at EV adoption history from countries around the world, it would appear that EVs are just getting started in the USA.

I do not want to change your mind, as I really don’t care what you drive. However, I do think you will change your mind quietly on your own eventually and then you will like EVs.

Being able to produce my own fuel on the roof of my house has been one of the most liberating things I’ve done in my long life, and I hope you someday experience it for yourself. Imagine no more 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 a gallon fuel, and not being at the mercy of big oil. It truly is wonderful.

 

[Wabujitsu]

doesn't seem that we've been about to do anything useful with the Casimir effect. I found a DARPA reference in 2009 and a journal article in 2013 - didn't see anything more recent. The casmir effect seems to allow levitation which could make a maglev train require less energy. But the effect isn't going to generate energy that would turn a shaft, or generate heat.

I know it seems extremely unlikely, but this is interesting. https://www.jovion.com/casimir-process

 

[Wabujitsu]

The Jovian company has what we call a "paper patent." They got a patent on some theory. I read the patent in its entirety. They describe a device that might work. but they didn't actually build the device nor extract any energy from it.

I still haven't found anyone who has actually built this yet. I'm not saying it is impossible.
But until we have a working prototype it's in the same status as the magical vibranium used by Wakanda.

Compare this with Superconductivity:
Superconductivity was first demonstrated in mercury in 1911. DEMONSTRATED, which is more than hypothesized.
The complete microscopic theory of superconductivity was finally figured out in 1957 by John Bardeen, Leon N. Cooper, and Robert Schrieffer. This BCS theory explained the superconducting current as a superfluid of Cooper pairs, pairs of electrons interacting through the exchange of phonons.
Originally people thought you could get wires with zero transmission loss but this turned out not to be true.
The first commercial application was magnets for a MRI machine in 1984. 70 years after the first demonstration.

So - since we don't even have a demonstration of the casmir effect yet - I would say using it to provide power is at least 70+ year away. And quite possibly getting power may not be possible, similar to superconductors, it may be best used for communication, electromagnets, and such.

That’s my take on it too. Not in our lifetime, as I said in my first post on this.

 

[Wabujitsu]

The Jovian company has what we call a "paper patent." They got a patent on some theory. I read the patent in its entirety. They describe a device that might work. but they didn't actually build the device nor extract any energy from it.

I still haven't found anyone who has actually built this yet. I'm not saying it is impossible.
But until we have a working prototype it's in the same status as the magical vibranium used by Wakanda.

Compare this with Superconductivity:
Superconductivity was first demonstrated in mercury in 1911. DEMONSTRATED, which is more than hypothesized.
The complete microscopic theory of superconductivity was finally figured out in 1957 by John Bardeen, Leon N. Cooper, and Robert Schrieffer. This BCS theory explained the superconducting current as a superfluid of Cooper pairs, pairs of electrons interacting through the exchange of phonons.
Originally people thought you could get wires with zero transmission loss but this turned out not to be true.
The first commercial application was magnets for a MRI machine in 1984. 70 years after the first demonstration.

So - since we don't even have a demonstration of the casmir effect yet - I would say using it to provide power is at least 70+ year away. And quite possibly getting power may not be possible, similar to superconductors, it may be best used for communication, electromagnets, and such.

Jim, check this out! A buddy of mine from Los Alamos sent me this link, even though it’s not his field. Maybe we are closer than we think? https://phys.org/news/2017-04-harne...this energy to be called "zero-point energy."

Sponsored