Hydrogen engines in the future?

[2nd 392]

And we've always been 10 years away from a new ice age, widespead global droughts and famines due to warming, massive floods from complete polar ice cap melts, super hurricanes every year, California west of the San Andreas Fault breaking off and falling into the sea, etc, etc

I will believe no more profits of doom, and I will not alter my life to prevent said prophecies.

And where are these breakthrough batteries that so many article were written about years ago? They were coming in just 2-3 years then. Still waiting. In the meantime, no one can make a simple 12V battery that will last more than 2-3 years on average.

I think it's great that alternative energy sources are coming out, and that heavy reliance on a single source will be eased. It's great that the outdoors and our air is cleaner than it's been in nearly a century. But pushing for alternative energy sources under the guise of saving the planet from imminent doom if we don't do this right now? Yeah, does anyone remember the Chicken Little story?

What this really boils down to is who is paying the politicians to do what. Lies are not only told by conservatives, but by liberals, socialists and communists as well. They are all working hard to forward their agendes, be them good or bad, detrimental or beneficial.

Yep— also reminds me of another fairytale

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[Dusty Dude]

Internal combustion is inherently inefficient, using more of the stored energy to create heat than perform work. Electric motors on the other hand are super efficient. A better method of storing electricity is the future in my opinion. Light weight, solid state batteries with high capacity will solve this debate once and for all if they can get there.

You are forgetting a major piece of the puzzle. Electricity doesn’t just magically show up at your door. It is generated by other fuels that most of the energy is dissipated as heat, just like gas. On top of that, there is transmission loss getting electricity from point A to point B. If you add those efficiencies to your super efficient electric motors, you are not any better than gas, and in many cases, worse than gas.

No such thing as a free lunch. The pollution comes out of a smoke stack instead of a tail pipe.

 

[Dusty Dude]

I think you're incorrect on your energy balance.
yes, it costs money to build a solar (and wind) farm. The reason utilities are building so many of them is that they are the lowest cost way to generate new electricity in many parts of the world.

Free market utilities are making the free choice to build solar and wind instead of natural gas or oil burning power plants.

The utility companies are subsidized here in the US to build wind and solar. The cost compared to natural gas and coal is higher. The regulations put in place by our government on existing power plants is designed to raise the cost of those plants above the “green” alternatives and/or close them down.

Besides, the sun doesn’t shine 24/7 and the wind doesn’t always blow, so they are not a consistent source of energy.

In other countries, the fuel source cost has to be taken into consideration the same as here. We have an abundant source of cheap natural gas and coal, whereas other countries might not.


I don’t know what you mean by energy balance, and then discussing cost? I was mentioning efficiency of work performed vs energy usage…

Edit: I noticed the graph you posted showed capacity, not output. So I grabbed a clip from an article I read recently:

On Wednesday, May 17th, the North American Electric Reliability Corporation (NERC) issued its 2023 Summer Reliability Assessment. Summarizing the report, Utility Dive noted that “Most of the United States will face an elevated risk of blackouts should summer weather turn extreme.”

Demand for cooling and the performance of wind and solar resources will be key factors in the grid’s performance. The situation has been exacerbated by demand growth and the retirement of coal and nuclear power plants.

Data from the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) show wind generation can virtually reach zero during hot summer days. To depend on wind to meet surging electricity demand is to gamble with grid reliability. Maybe it will work, maybe it won’t.

 

[The Last Cowboy]

This is sad and wasteful. Hopefully a solution if found for this

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...d-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills#xj4y7vzkg

And a good percentage of these windmills are offline at any given time due to lack of maintenance. As much as they cost, you would figure that there would be skilled crews doing nothing but.

I know they work, how well and to what degree has been debated. But damn they are a blight on the landscape west of here. Where the distant mesas used to have wide, sweeping views for miles, now all I see are windmills in the day and blinking lights at night. Satellite photos show a giant series of pads, roads and cable trenches on what was sensitive semi arid ground. The grass and ground cover will never grow back in our lifetimes in some of those areas. It makes it even worse to think that those used blades will be burried in trenches near these wind farms.

 

[Cutterone]

This is sad and wasteful. Hopefully a solution if found for this

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...d-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills#xj4y7vzkg

And a good percentage of these windmills are offline at any given time due to lack of maintenance. As much as they cost, you would figure that there would be skilled crews doing nothing but.

I know they work, how well and to what degree has been debated. But damn they are a blight on the landscape west of here. Where the distant mesas used to have wide, sweeping views for miles, now all I see are windmills in the day and blinking lights at night. Satellite photos show a giant series of pads, roads and cable trenches on what was sensitive semi arid ground. The grass and ground cover will never grow back in our lifetimes in some of those areas. It makes it even worse to think that those used blades will be burried in trenches near these wind farms.

Exactly, you build a coal or natural gas power plant and it'll last decades or more, afaik the lifespan of solar panels is around 10 years, and I'm sure the giant wind turbine blades are similar...

 

[swampflyer]

All companies and the government, who are involved in the production of goods and services should have a 100 percent recycling program for the materials they produce. You want to see the results of not doing this, just look at the abandoned steel mills and mining operations across the us. It's not a pretty sight. You build and it becomes obsolete then you take it down and recycle and repurpose. There should be a requirement to have a fund for this prior to approving construction. It doesn't matter what it is. Windmills, refineries, steel mills, housing etc you get the drift. Just constantantly f-ing up the country has got to stop. I know there are nay sayers but look at the job creation possibilities. If you're able to work and don't then you don't eat.

 

[txj2go]

If you're able to work and don't then you don't eat.

"You don't work, you don't eat."
Bronson

 

[The Last Cowboy]

This is a very important point. Europe is leading the way.
The USA still has a throwaway culture. We don't properly allocate the cost of disposal.
Companies can build something, ROI 5 years, run it for 10, make their money back, and then abandon it and everyone else who lives nearby is left with the cost of clean up.

This is exactly what’s happening with many wind farms around here. Start up energy companies leased land and installed them, then connected them to the grid.

Most were funded with grants, which were fulfilled for less money in actual cost (as most grants are, which is a completely different discussion). Then these companies file for bankruptcy, get bought out by some other obscure company or just disappear. There are thousands of turbines out there not producing and no one to repair or even maintain them.

The land owners are left with no lease money coming in and no real recourse on what to do with the abandoned equipment. Most signed very complicated leases that leave them with land that is of no value to them, or anyone else except an prospective new owner of the equipment.

 

[Zandcwhite]

I think the biggest advantage of solar is also the biggest advantage of EVs, fuel at your own home. Obviously it doesn't work for everyone, but the massive majority of single family homes can install solar, run their house, charge their EV, and even contribute to the grid for those that can't. Even if you charge your EV at night, your grid interactive solar "pays" for it so long as you generate enough electricity during the day to cover it. Show me how you fuel your ice vehicle while you sleep, for free. Show me your home coal generator. Please don't even attempt to build a nuclear reactor in your garage. No the infrastructure for an instantaneous worldwide switch isn't there, but the tech is. All we have to do is move on that direction as a society. Unlike water, gas, sewer, etc we as individuals can actual contribute to the electrical grid on a massive scale.

 

[txj2go]

I think the biggest advantage of solar is also the biggest advantage of EVs, fuel at your own home.

My sister has solar panels all over her roof. (Extremely ugly because her house has light colored shingles and the solar panels are black.) In summer they generate more electricity than they use. I don't know how much they generate when it is cloudy. I would have solar panels if I could but my house is completely covered in trees, very little sunshine hits any part of my roof. Look at my house on google satellite image and you couldn't tell there is even a house there. I always thought it would be interesting to have a wind generator near my back yard, I would just run a big wire out there and tap into it as part of the lease agreement.

I had a relative who owned a ranch and one day I saw a cell tower on one of his fields. He said the cell company asked him and his neighbors, he figured they were going to build one no matter what and he would have to look at it so he thought he might as well get paid for it.

 

[The Last Cowboy]

I think the biggest advantage of solar is also the biggest advantage of EVs, fuel at your own home. Obviously it doesn't work for everyone, but the massive majority of single family homes can install solar, run their house, charge their EV, and even contribute to the grid for those that can't. Even if you charge your EV at night, your grid interactive solar "pays" for it so long as you generate enough electricity during the day to cover it. Show me how you fuel your ice vehicle while you sleep, for free. Show me your home coal generator. Please don't even attempt to build a nuclear reactor in your garage. No the infrastructure for an instantaneous worldwide switch isn't there, but the tech is. All we have to do is move on that direction as a society. Unlike water, gas, sewer, etc we as individuals can actual contribute to the electrical grid on a massive scale.

Charged EVs also add to the grid in the form of battery backup to help during high demand or surges. I read an article about it awhile back and it made a great deal of sense. I'm sure most with EVs don't know about that aspect of it.

Solar on the roof is something I have gone back and forth over. I like the idea in general. I would like the energy savings and the shade that the panels would create, with an airspace over the actual roof would also contribute to a cooler house. However, roof repair would become exponentially more expensive. Frequent spring thunderstorms here often bring large diameter damaging hail, further complicating ownership. Then there is the concern I have about not completely trusting the competency of the install or the quality of the product. There seems to be no premier companies in the industry yet, just a buch of start up companies promising that you will pay little or nothing based on grants or tax subsidies. If you want to "upgrade" to a system that is more meaningful to you actual use, it will likely push the out of pocket easily into 5 figures. Then there is the matter of homeowner insurance, now that an expensive electrical device has been added that is susceptible to weather damage. So, my utility bills are low enough now, that going solar makes now sense to me. Yeah, my electric bills will be lower, but It will cost me more overall. At the same time, I would be contributing to the grid and would get nothing in return, well except the subsidy should I qualify.

In my opinion, solar on homeowner's roofs and EVs plugged in charging, and by default becoming a storage bank for the grid, seems to be the "fix" that utility companies are hoping for to quell outages and brown outs due to high demand. What really need to be done is to build more power generating stations. All forms of fueling them should be allowed. coal, natural gas, compressed waste, wind, solar, nuclear, even geothermal.

Also, right now, it seems that individual solar and EVs benefit mostly homeowners. Those who can modify their property to accept the chargers and the panels. And only those who can afford those things. Renter, by and large, can not modify their property and a only a scant few investment properties have those features. Apartment dwellers have to seek alternate means to charge an EV. And, you can bet on this, once EVs on the road reach a certain percentage that those free charging locations will disappear. Also registrations for EV will become far more expensive when they are no longer a novelty on the road. Since EVs don't use gasoline, they don't pay the per gallon levied road tax that those with ICEs pay. The burden for the cost our roads and highways can't only be born by those who use gas and diesel.

Hydrogen has promise, but will it really be competitive? EVs have their place, no doubt. As do ICE powered means of transportation. I do believe deeply though, that the government needs to get their tentacles out of the private market. A few hundred elected officials, and thousands of bureaucrats in D.C. are no smarter than the hundreds of millions of Americans who generate the capital (via taxation and various fees) to keep them living in the style, comfort, and security that they enjoy. Let the free market decide, manufacturers and consumers, and we will all be better off.

 

[AlgUSF]

Challenge accepted

Hmmmm, I see a knock on your door in the near future from some sort of Federal Agency.

 

[azjl#3]

One word: Hindenburg.

 

[Old Jeeper]

Hence why we should be building tons of Gen4 (or5?) reactors...We've had the solution to clean energy for 70 years, and the new reactors are small, modular, super efficient, and with modern tech as fail proof as you can make anything...but wind and solar...sure right...

Some where on here there is an Applause button, but I cannot find it, till then I applauding your insight.

Nuke failed because the failed to understand Nuke. It was more of 1 city, 1 nuke plant, 1 state 2 nuke plants.

Where is the problem: Nuke get large and as it gets BIG it become more and more difficult to manage. Big Nuke goes critical, US, Japan, Russia have all seen it happen.

BUT WAIT, how about our Nuclear Navy, ships are small, nuke package is small, easy to handle.

Now you got Micro-Nukes, they take of neighborhoods. Building about the size of a large gas station, supports about 1000 homes, its safe, clean and efficient...DUH!!!

Wind cost it skyrocketing. What was a $1M is now $2.5 M on the small ones, the BIG MEGAs are costing up to $7M. All for something that had to be REPLACED every 20 or LESS, its trending downward, just saw and article that they thing replace every 15 years. Due to costs to replace those that do not make the 20 year run. See link below.

Ahh but Solar, YEA, sure, who cleans the panels on acres and acres and acres of panels...even a $10 bucks an hour for for over 100 people out there daily wiping off panels big $$

Ohh and I forgot, Panels last not more than 20 years. My panel finally failed on me at about 10 years. The conversion decreases beging on day 1 until it no longer generates enough juice to work.

Wanna bet$$$$. Gasoline is here to stay (NOTE, Toyota is NOT going Hydrogen, or EV, they are putting Billions into more efficient engines, so is GM!

According to the Federal GOVT, there is enough oil/gas in the Permian Basin in Texas/New Mexico to last the us 200 more years!

 

[Karnak]

The reason hydrogen is being evaluated is purely fir a way to be able to reduce emissions. Right now, at the speed the planet is going, they’re trying to find ways to reduce emissions in everything they can and that includes cars so the hydrogen car was designed.

Your not gonna see lots of consummer benefits fir yourself but hydrogen cars would be a goodway to help reduce world vehicle emissions so thats why they are created, to help us try to save our planet before its too late.

i think hydrogen is a great idea and we should pursue/support it even if it means me paying the same price at the pump.

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