The future of the Wrangler Jeep

[jeepoch]

As to the actual Future of Wrangler, all electric will be coming soon, as batteries are improving by the minute.
Electric car owners that I've listened to love theirs, and claim maintenance costs are very low compared to ICE vehicles. The instant torque alone is worth the price of admission, to me.

@four low,

Apologize in advance for a long read, but I do provide some good points with some supporting physics.

Actually your statement about maintenance costs being lower for electric vehicles compared to ICE is more than a little misleading. First off it does seem intuitive that the electrics don't have oil changes, spark plugs replacements and so forth, but let's consider a few other factors.

For electrical vehicles their main batteries typically degrade approximately 6% per year depending on proper battery maintenance and conditioning. So if you lease an all electric and trade for a new vehicle every year or two, then no issue.

However, if you purchase outright at some point in time you have to replace the main battery. When and how often you do will determine a more reasonable comparison to the overall maintenance cost.

Doing just a quick internet search, a conservative estimate (with current battery technology) yields about $450 per kilowatt hour for a replacement estimate. However, some Tesla owners must endure near $30K replacement costs due to several other factors. We'll neglect all that Tesla stuff for this analysis.

The PHEV Jeep 4xe is anticipated to be a 17 kWh battery. So about every five years or so (5x6=30% degradation) you'll need to invest $450x17=$7650 for a new battery. Compare that to about $75 twice per year for oil changes over that same period: $75x(5years x 2)=$750 for oil changes.

So you're cost of ownership, just considering casual maintenance is 10x higher (7650÷750=10.2) for an electric. Not the other way around as you imply.

Charging costs vs fuel cost is a whole lot more difficult to determine. However, again doing the most simple internet research, most estimates predict 10 to 20 cents per kWh and assuming 1000 miles driven per month and 3 to 4 miles per kWh yields near $50 per month in charging costs. Most urban cities and the more progressive energy providers typically have even higher rates. So if you live in the North East or West Coast likely plan on almost doubling your electric rate estimates. I got this from the internet via Kelly Blue Book:

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ev/

Comparing that to an ICE vehicle with average (current) pump price of $2.90 per gallon and 30 mpg (estimated hybrid 4xe milage) over that same 1000 miles per month yields 1000÷30=33gallons x $2.90 = $97 per month. So almost twice the energy cost for an ICE. Unless you live in a higher rate area. The cost is then very similar.

Wait, not so fast. The electric estimate is just based on conceptual simple 110v home charging. That takes about a dozen or so hours for a full charge. In reality, quicker (level 2) chargers are typically desired to reduce charging time down to just a few hours per full charge. Level 2 charging equipment typically range between $2K to $3K per charger that would have to be installed in your garage. These require a 220/240v service which would also likely require additional house wiring. While more efficient, they also consume more energy per unit time from the grid. This can increase your kWh rate especially during peak rates during daytime hours. The charger investment alone is about 31 months (almost three years worth of fuel).

Furthermore, if your electric power source is primarily provided from alternate 'green' resources, a backup gas generator may need to be invested in (at home) if you require your vehicle during unpredictable blackouts. The size of your generator will likely run in the thousands of dollars in order to run the level 2 charger. But this is totally an optional investment. We won't consider it further.

Even more to consider still, the latest level 3 fast chargers are still rather cost prohibitive (couldn't find any consumer offerings). These are currently publicly provided but at rates much higher than your residential rate.

So the additional one time charging equipment cost plus the higher rates for using the quicker and fast chargers very quickly bite into that per month savings.

Plus, the lack of comprehensive charging infrastructure everywhere outside the most dense urban cities still make ICE the most practical / economical solution for most people. Even the fastest charging solutions are typically 30 minutes for an adequate charge and up to 45 minutes for a full charge (depending on your particular battery condition). Are you willing to wait that time compared to sub 5 minutes per tank fuel fill up while travelling. That is if you're even willing to chance a road trip?

So please take into account the bigger picture before 'believing' battery powered vehicles are even anywhere near feasible, at least universally (yet). If you want to be an early adapter, please do so. We always need pioneers that are willing to undertake hardships in order to drive improvement and innovation. My highest respect and compliments if you do so.

For me hybrids still offer you the best efficiency, convenience, practicality and the security of not getting stranded somewhere especially on trail if your heart is set in electric motors.

My vote (if it counts) is to not totally kill ICE until we are way beyond our infancy with battery technologies. While we are making progress, it's certainly not by the minute. That's wishful thinking...

I'd rather consider the physical science rather than what some people just believe.

Clearly we do have to get there. Decomposed Dinosaur Goo will last only so long. There is no debate there. Maybe for how long but it is clearly a limited resource. But we should also invest in some effort to come up with synthetic ICE alternatives such as hydrogen fuel cells as well. We have to pursue more practical solutions other than getting rid of ICE as fast as possible just because it feels good. Batteries will never be the magic panacea that we're all being led to believe.

Jay

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[cosine]

jay, i managed to read your post. but i'll admitted it that i was loosing it at the "wait, not so fast" part. i can see your break down as to what it takes to have a electric vehicle and it sounds like it could be a good alternative in the future technology. now this is just my views. i think its a great way to introduce the ev into todays time and still a long ways to go. but i dont see the value in owning one.

 

[jeepoch]

jay, i managed to read your post. but i'll admitted it that i was loosing it at the "wait, not so fast" part. i can see your break down as to what it takes to have a electric vehicle and it sounds like it could be a good alternative in the future technology. now this is just my views. i think its a great way to introduce the ev into todays time and still a long ways to go. but i dont see the value in owning one.

Chris,

Admittedly I just sort of threw my last post together after only minimal research. However, I felt compelled to stand up against the magic fairy dust that's being sprinkled around at how incredibly wonderful zero emission electric vehicles (EV) are. Perhaps someday, but just not now or not quite yet.

The "wait, not so fast" part was to highlight that even with the fast(er) charging tech that's being touted, this too comes with additional cost.

Most people believe (by less than fully accurate intent) that charging batteries is fast, easy and free. I'm just trying to point out that battery charging is certainly not fast, requires a fair amount of effort to setup and that it's anything but free.

Maybe if enough people try and use an EV for any amount of time with a purpose of more than simple 30 minute commutes, they'll endure enough pain to then truly understand it's shortcomings. Especially as batteries degrade and must eventually be replaced. I also never mentioned just how toxic a battery really is. It's manufacture, it's disposal and certainly when damaged during a crash is really (really) harmful to the planet.

Granted, we will have to get through the learning, adoption and mass-use curve eventually. But we can't collapse our entire lifestyle and scocio-economic structure just to kill a proven reliable technology without a viable and practical alternative. Electric vehicles while promising, do not yet come close to being either viable or practical. No matter how many hope and wish that it [soon] will.

I say, let them prove me wrong. Just don't kill an entire industry and the collapse of our economy by forcing a premature 'not-yet-ready-for-primetime' technology. Let's work out the EV kinks before completely destroying ICE altogether and we're left with something much worse than what we currently already have. The objective goal should be a clear improvement at every level not just as a step back, in order to settle, because ICE and carbon are so emotionally bad. We need to be smart about getting there, not hap-hazard about it.

Jay

 

[rallydefault]

I have no doubt that, as electric vehicles become more numerous, there will be all sorts of options for battery coverage just like we have engine coverage for ICE vehicles. It's still kind of the wild west outside of Tesla, but I'm sure it will come. An interesting question for anybody here who has owned a Tesla: Do they offer any kind of battery replacement coverage? Do any other companies offer battery plans?

The biggest thing for electrics right now, in my opinion, is the charging infrastructure. Tesla has a good thing going, but any other car relies on third-party charging stations, and from everything I read and watch, it seems those stations have a 50/50 shot at actually working, and that may be a generous estimate. They all seem to have different apps and ways to pay, too. Different rates of charging, some very slow. It also depends on where you live. Where I am in PA, I kid you not, there is not a single charging station in my city, a Tesla station in a city about 10 miles north, and then nothing for about 50 miles in any direction and a larger city. That would pretty much mean only home charging for me, which would mostly be doable, but it still serves to show how early this stuff still is for people who need their cars for lots of daily miles.

Also is the time it takes to charge. You're on a road trip, you need gas, you stop and pump for 5 minutes, you're good to go. Even with a Tesla supercharging, you're gonna be there for like, what, half an hour or so? That's fine if you can also shop or eat at a restaurant in the same location, but that's far from the norm. I guess it will just take more planning, and not everyone drives such long distances regularly, so that kind of thing can be dismissed as a nuisance and not major.

I'll admit that I was very skeptical of electric vehicles at first. I did the usual grumpy routine of pointing out all the faults and how it's probably not that much cheaper, some of the components are just as ruinous toward the environment, etc. But you just gotta face the facts: We can't keep depending on fossil fuels forever, much less use them at the rates we have been in recent history. We need to branch into alternative means, and it looks like electric is the way we're gonna go for now. I'm gonna wait and see how things go, of course, but I fully expect my next vehicle will be an electric one (and hopefully a wrangler lol).

 

[HardSell]

Apologize in advance for a long read,

The truth hurts...The whole truth hurts even more. In thanks, I savor the rigor of your candor. Few people nowadays are capable or willing to deal with facts. They have too much easy money and time at their disposal to cope with such inconveniences.

Moreover,

If you want to be an early adapter, please do so.

Your subsequent post, intentionally or not, describes the cost consequences an impulsive, ill-considered-decision pronned society bears as early adopters are required to become early adapters due to short sighted development standards of manufacturers driven by unrepressed politically correct thinking. Considering that Jeeps are supposedly purchased to access remote challenging terrain, owning an EV Wrangler is contrary to rational thinking as evidenced by an inconvenient fact regarding Teslas:

Depending on constant braking in low range to regenerate a battery on a Jeep trail is more absurd than watching out for alligators in palm trees, notwithstanding the logic of Wrangler's notorious aerodynamics applied to the expectations of EV economy, LOL!

 

[four low]

jeepoch, if those long winded posts of yours weren't founded on Fairy Dust " predictions, estimates, and conjectures" on your part, you might have something to say. I base my statements from actual observations from people who own EVs, real experience, not your conjectures based on a detailed Logic Train...

 

[HardSell]

In my lifetime the golf cart exemplifies the most efficient use of electric power for personal transportation to include the initial cost of conveyance and maintenance for applications of short range, specific terrain and best efficiency (payload weighing slightly less than half the weight of the chassis). An EV Wrangler navigating 10 miles of rock crawling climbing 300 feet per mile weighing in at 6800 lbs including 2 passengers and overnight cargo sporting a 17kWh battery beginning the trail with a full charge would optimistically require additional full charges every three or four miles.
See:

Factor in friction, heat, frequent stopping, starting, acceleration, lifting height of mass as a function of the square of gravity, acceleration and byproduct energy loss to duration of operation. Also, consider the decrease in efficiency as kWhs increase in battery output so does the mass and heat inefficiency of the battery itself. One could realistically expect a 120 kWh battery to make the 20 mile round trip (trail only). In terms of today's technology, that's a 1600 lb battery also requiring a cooling scheme with the associated weight, maintenance and complexity such a rig would require. Until dreamers of all electric Wranglers actually wheel locker required 4wd terrain over real distances in temperature extremes, they will never appreciate the amount of work a $2.50 (for now) gallon of gasoline does.

The physics limiting portable electric power is the reason we do not use batteries as an energy source to launch rocket payloads.

Regarding the utility of EVs, blacktop matters.

 

[jeepoch]

jeepoch, if those long winded posts of yours weren't founded on Fairy Dust " predictions, estimates, and conjectures" on your part, you might have something to say. I base my statements from actual observations from people who own EVs, real experience, not your conjectures based on a detailed Logic Train...

I'm amazed. I do my homework, find some third party data from a neural source (assuming Kelly Blue Book is indeed that) run the numbers with explanations and provide examples and you still don't want to see the most obvious of issues behind an Electric Vehicle.

Please, by all means ignore me, the math, the logic and go spend $75K+ for a total and complete disappointment. At least you can't say you weren't informed and still made a bad decision from the PC Agenda-driven Fairy Dusters. (You even misread that.) It's the pro EV crowd spreading the Fairy Dust. PLEASE DON'T QUOTE ME OUT OF CONTEXT!!!

If some others jump over that cliff, knock yourself out and blindly join them.

It's all good. I'll wave at you while my ICE is climbing on by. Go have fun... It will take people like you to go through the hardship of realizing what a false promise this all is in it's current state. Your experience will help lead us to the next round of forced subsidized funding.

Go prove me wrong with all my blessings.

Jay

 

[_olllllllo_]

I follow Tesla and the Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV) community very closely. In fact I was deciding between a Model 3 and a Jeep Rubicon. I chose the Rubicon due to the fact that I am sure there will be an upgrade path to convert from fossil fuel to battery electric in the near future. The current threshold for BEV equivalency is $100/KWh and Tesla has reached this. With the release of the 4680 battery later this year they will be below that threshold. BEVs do suffer when towing, off-roading, and when the motor must be under greater load.

I am so happy I chose the Rubicon and my kids are too. When we are out having fun or driving with the top and doors off they remind me a Tesla can't do that.

 

[cosine]

i'm sticking with a gas motor. ev cost of ownership is not worth it. also its not particle for road trips.

 

[four low]

Fast Charge batteries, as in 5- 15 minutes are in the works, the largest diesel engine builder in the world is switching over to electric motors; the tide is turning, electric and Wrangler are made for each other.

 

[HardSell]

Folks have been buying Teslas for about 17 years. Below are some considerations for future EV Wrangler owners who chose to venture beyond the mall.

Must clear up the difference between Hybrids or PHEVs and EVs (electric only as are Teslas) My opinion is favorable regarding hybrid technology as being viable trail vehicles delivering advantages of both technologies while not solely relying on the availability of charging stations as does Tesla. No argument from me as long as Stellantis can surprisingly build a reliable unit. The 2.0L is capable to satisfactorily power a JLUR.

But now, we're considering the argument of going strictly EV in a Wrangler regarding the following scenario.......

Gosh, I've been planning this Hole in the Rock Badge of Honor trip for months with my buddies. Sometimes, I forget to plug in, or the breaker occasionally shuts off unexpectedly. Besides, it can take 10 or 12 hours to charge from the dryer outlet. I'd really like one of them there quick chargers so's I can git goin' in a half hour.

Fast Charge batteries, as in 5- 15 minutes are in the works, the largest diesel engine builder in the world is switching over to electric motors; the tide is turning, electric and Wrangler are made for each other.

Quick charge my 70kWh (Vaporware) Wrangler, please! Is there a quick charger at the beginning of Hole in the Rock? How about 3 or 4 miles in? I definitely will need a charge at the bottom approach to Grey Mesa and another at the bottom of the Chute coming back.

Trail damage....hmmm.

Gonna be staying four nights out on the trail, 'cause I wanna do the recently reopened exciting Rincon trail to Lake Powell with my buddies driving their old built XJs, then return to complete to Cottonwood Canyon, then take another day to get back to tarmac. My buddies are topping off their tanks and filling two Jerry cans at the airstrip near the beginning of this trail for their nasty old ICEs.

I'm confused:

The Jeep Dealer assured me, despite being a new technology for Wranger the EV is the most capable and dependable Wrangler ever built! https://www.motor1.com/news/387979/jeep-ev-best-product-ever/
Uhh, what's with that sceen blinking whenever I go over a bump? Never noticed that on pavement.

$80,000 for that Wrangler EV? Ring it up! Facts never concern me.

 

[Vinman]

Two questions:
1) Where is all the electricity going to come when some cities are already asking people to conserve usage during peak times?

2) Do people think the cost of electricity will not sky-rocket once the masses become more reliant on it?

 

[jeepoch]

Fast Charge batteries, as in 5- 15 minutes are in the works, the largest diesel engine builder in the world is switching over to electric motors; the tide is turning, electric and Wrangler are made for each other.

@four low,

Not to keep picking on you, a little context with your statements would be nice:

Please refer to the following article to refute your unsupported claims:

https://newatlas.com/abb-350kw-fast-charger/54377/

This is currently one of the fastest EV Chargers available. It will charge certain (but not all batteries)in 8 minutes but please read the fine print before advertising false impressions!

These fast charging rates are very detrimental to almost all current batteries made (please read the article).

Also, the point of the article is that this super-duper 350 kW charger will only deliver 120 miles in a very efficient electric vehicle for that amount of charge delivered in that specific 8 minutes. So one of the very best Electric Vehicles yet produced can only drive 120 miles on an 8 minute charge.

I currently get almost 400 mile range on my way more inefficient 3.6L Wrangler with about a 3 minute fill up. If I had a large enough gas tank to hold 8 minutes worth of petrol filling time, damn I'd be able to drive probably near 1000 miles or more. ALMOST A TEN FOLD INCREASE IN RANGE for the amount of recharge time!

Furthermore, there are no EV long range (Over-The-Road) trucking solutions yet being considered. All electric prototypes are still experimental and only on short-haul routes.

It's wonderful you are so passionate in adapting to this politically driven dream, but there is as yet no PRACTICAL comparison between ICE and EV. I'm [absolutely] not saying that EV won't be a better solution someday, just not yet. We're just getting started.

However, I'm worried that the EV motivations and fairy tale advertisements which are being forced down our throats don't line up with reality. The EV Emperor has no clothes... I'm just pointing out how naked he really is.

@HardSell, thanks so much for the assist.

Jay

 

[AnnDee4444]

I guess that means that the Wrangler will die with the internal combustion engine.

When Jeep is forced to go EV only, I hope they give these problems a lot of thought. And maybe a new name... like EJ?

• Range: 200 kWH battery? Not sure what's practical, but I think it would need to be big. Either that or an aftermarket Mopar range extending internal combustion engine.
• Weight: obviously an issue with EV range, maybe fiberglass or carbon fiber body panels are in the future.
• Drivetrain: this could be a very interesting... solid axles with the motor on axle, or even independent suspension with the electric motor housed in each wheel (planetary gearing for 4-low?).
• Waterproofing & armor: obvious
• Tires: Off road tires suck for efficiency. A proper EV off-road vehicle would probably also need a built in tire inflator/deflator to make the most out of the on-road mileage.
• Aerodynamics: This could be tricky... probably won't look like a Jeep anymore. Big exposed tires don't really work for aerodynamics, so maybe some sort of movable (or removable) body panels that would allow clearance when needed.

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