Hot Take - Is Stellantis really that bad?

[rforbes]

Ok, here is my hot take. I will probably get flamed back to heck over this but here we are. It is extremely popular to trash Stellantis, and Jeep, and Chrysler and really the whole thing. I wonder, though, do any of them deserve how much crap they get? Here me out. ...

I keep hearing all over the place how much Stellantis has “ruined” the Wrangler. They base this off the power train (e.g. the 4xe) or the interior. But I have to ask, what makes a Wrangler? I would contend that Stellantis didn’t change the very most important part of a Jeep. The solid front axle, the suspension, the full frame, the box shape, etc. All these things are what really makes a Jeep a Jeep. Would any other company have made that same decision? I mean, so far literally nobody has. There are absolutely no solid axle mid size vehicles on the market at all. You have to jump up to super heavy duty trucks to find them. Another thing to remember, these are STILL made to be extremely changable.

So many people look at a Jeep as a base platform to modify and the Jeep is made to support that. I feel pretty certain that any other manufacturer would have tried ot widen the appeal of a very niche vehicle by trying to make the Wrangler more aerodynamic, putting in IFS, etc. The Wrangler is an extremely niche vehicle they have been supportive at keeping it niche.

Next issue is quality control. Yeah, this is never fun. Stat after stat shows us, however, that the QA issues are not dramatically worse than any other manufacturer out there. Sure, it doesn’t sit at the top of the heap but it certainly doesn’t sit at the bottom.

Then there is the price. That is always a fun one. Yup, the Wrangler can be very expensive. A new Rubicon X is 60k. Throw a 4xe into that and you are up to 70k. Add in the 392 and now you are at nearly 100k. That is dramatic and you will hear all the time “why, I paid X for my Jeep and now it would cost X + a lot!”. But what do the numbers actually tell us. So, I crunched some. The highest level trim on the Wrangler has increased dramatically, 240%. That is high but let’s compare it to the 4-runner. The highest level trim price increase over time for them is something like 120%. So, yeah. The Wrangler has most definitely increased dramatically in price. But, that isn’t the whole story. When you take a look at the base model it changes things quite a bit. The base 4-runner price has increased 97% while the Wrangler has increased only 68%! The base model Wrangler is not increasing at all that dramatic of a rate.

Finally, there is the drive to electricity. This frustrates a lot of people who want nothing to do with it and don’t understand why Jeep has to go in that direction and why the government is helping them in pushing it so much. I think many of us here are very insulated on what is going on in the rest of the world. Currently, China is absolutely dominating the electric market. Their electric vehciles are far FAR superior to anything that we have here. We are absolutely losing the race for the future and there is plenty of evidence that we may not recover. Rolling all these electrical efforts back is not going to help that.

So, anyway. What I see is a brand attempting to stay relevant in a changing world. Willing to maintain a very niche vehicle despite low appeal, and attempting to increase its appeal through things like its engine performance and interior amenities. I dunno, I am not so sure Stellantis was such a bad thing after all.

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[Terrymo]

 

[NWJeepr]

I am not so sure Stellantis was such a bad thing after all.

A lot of Stellantis' strategy appears to be poorly executed. Their innovation with regard to the Wrangler isn't all bad, though.

 

[2nd 392]

FWIW— Kuniskis gets it - about Ram, but could be all Stella brands in some form.
“Honestly, the bigger issue isn’t Hemi vs T-6. The bigger issue is we took away a fundamental American thing . Americans love freedom of choice more than anything. When you take away their freedom of choice and tell them they must take this, they revolt. Whether it makes sense or not, it doesn’t matter. It’s anti American, you’ve taken my flag away , f**k you.”……….

 

[NPC 20883467]

...I wonder, though, do any of them deserve how much crap they get? Here me out...

There are two types of Stellantis vehicle owners-- those who have been screwed, and those who have yet to realize they've been screwed.

 

[rforbes]

FWIW— Kuniskis gets it - about Ram, but could be all Stella brands in some form.
“Honestly, the bigger issue isn’t Hemi vs T-6. The bigger issue is we took away a fundamental American thing . Americans love freedom of choice more than anything. When you take away their freedom of choice and tell them they must take this, they revolt. Whether it makes sense or not, it doesn’t matter. It’s anti American, you’ve taken my flag away , f**k you. ……….

I would agree with this. The lack of options (can't get a manual with a 4-cylinder, etc) I find not great.

 

[2nd 392]

I would agree with this. The lack of options (can't get a manual with a 4-cylinder, etc) I find not great.

Precisely- I wanted a 2dr, V8, preferably with a proper close ratio Tremec, Nope. Might have gotten a Diesel if offered, Nope, ok with an automatic, Nope. After the final-final final V8 with a 4dr automatic, Nope, ya want power, you Must get a hybrid 4 dr automatic. The want power, requires hybrid goes well beyond Stella.
He did say in the interview that Ford offers both a T-6 and a V8 F-150. Clearly unhappy about Hemi’s stupidly being dropped.

 

[BXFXJeep]

Jeep has always been this bad, when they were owned by Mercedes, they were bad, when they were owned by Fiat they were bad, by Chrysler, bad...... it's not a Stellantis thing, the problem now is their vehicles are a lot more complex, and a lot more expensive, and you are still dealing with service that cannot do a simple oil change, and then there is customer service, but granted customer service can't really do much, you are not Jeep's customer, the dealership is their customer, and you are the dealership's customer.

Pre JL it was celebration time when the Wrangler warranty expired, not so much now.

 

[Trails]

Ok, here is my hot take. I will probably get flamed back to heck over this but here we are. It is extremely popular to trash Stellantis, and Jeep, and Chrysler and really the whole thing. I wonder, though, do any of them deserve how much crap they get? Here me out. ...

I keep hearing all over the place how much Stellantis has “ruined” the Wrangler. They base this off the power train (e.g. the 4xe) or the interior. But I have to ask, what makes a Wrangler? I would contend that Stellantis didn’t change the very most important part of a Jeep. The solid front axle, the suspension, the full frame, the box shape, etc. All these things are what really makes a Jeep a Jeep. Would any other company have made that same decision? I mean, so far literally nobody has. There are absolutely no solid axle mid size vehicles on the market at all. You have to jump up to super heavy duty trucks to find them. Another thing to remember, these are STILL made to be extremely changable.

So many people look at a Jeep as a base platform to modify and the Jeep is made to support that. I feel pretty certain that any other manufacturer would have tried ot widen the appeal of a very niche vehicle by trying to make the Wrangler more aerodynamic, putting in IFS, etc. The Wrangler is an extremely niche vehicle they have been supportive at keeping it niche.

Next issue is quality control. Yeah, this is never fun. Stat after stat shows us, however, that the QA issues are not dramatically worse than any other manufacturer out there. Sure, it doesn’t sit at the top of the heap but it certainly doesn’t sit at the bottom.

Then there is the price. That is always a fun one. Yup, the Wrangler can be very expensive. A new Rubicon X is 60k. Throw a 4xe into that and you are up to 70k. Add in the 392 and now you are at nearly 100k. That is dramatic and you will hear all the time “why, I paid X for my Jeep and now it would cost X + a lot!”. But what do the numbers actually tell us. So, I crunched some. The highest level trim on the Wrangler has increased dramatically, 240%. That is high but let’s compare it to the 4-runner. The highest level trim price increase over time for them is something like 120%. So, yeah. The Wrangler has most definitely increased dramatically in price. But, that isn’t the whole story. When you take a look at the base model it changes things quite a bit. The base 4-runner price has increased 97% while the Wrangler has increased only 68%! The base model Wrangler is not increasing at all that dramatic of a rate.

Finally, there is the drive to electricity. This frustrates a lot of people who want nothing to do with it and don’t understand why Jeep has to go in that direction and why the government is helping them in pushing it so much. I think many of us here are very insulated on what is going on in the rest of the world. Currently, China is absolutely dominating the electric market. Their electric vehciles are far FAR superior to anything that we have here. We are absolutely losing the race for the future and there is plenty of evidence that we may not recover. Rolling all these electrical efforts back is not going to help that.

So, anyway. What I see is a brand attempting to stay relevant in a changing world. Willing to maintain a very niche vehicle despite low appeal, and attempting to increase its appeal through things like its engine performance and interior amenities. I dunno, I am not so sure Stellantis was such a bad thing after all.

I agree with a good amount of this. So, here's the part that I disagree with. When referencing electric vehicles, you can't compare us to China. China is a much different culture that uses its vehicles for much different purposes. They mostly concentrate on pragmatic purposes: Commuting, trips to the market, etc. Most Chinese do not do long road trips just for the sake of doing long road trips (as we do), .... never mind taking their vehicles off-road to remote areas (and away from recharging stations).

Even ignoring the off-road part, we regularly take extensive road trips, often logging 600-800 miles in a day (Our highest was 1,080 in a day). These are not in the Jeep, but in another vehicle. But, even for medium length trips, all electric provides a challenge. We love exploring small towns, out of the way barbecue joints and diners, and generally keeping away from big cities. This is anathema to many cultures. A former co-worker of mine, who is Asian, asked "what is the purpose" of that type of trip (referring to our rural, small town getaways). To him, this type of trip was "Slumming it". Apparently, an enjoyable trip for his Asian culture centers around traveling to big cities, and preferably flying to them. That type of trip is not for us. We like to road trio it, and visit the small towns and rural areas. We easily can go all day without encountering a single charging station (Not that we were looking for them).
Another friend, who is big into electric vehicles (He has a Tesla), commented that for our rural trips, we can "detour here, or go X distance over to there" to be able to "simply charge the vehicle". So, basically, he is saying we would have to modify / change our route / trip somewhat in order to accommodate an all electric vehicle. No thanks. We have _never_ had to "go out of the way" for gasoline. Maybe we'll look at electric someday when it has a 1,200 mile range (meaning a "real" 800-900 miles). But, it is a big no for us at this time. (Refering to all electric, not a hybrid plug-in).

 

[rforbes]

I agree with a good amount of this. So, here's the part that I disagree with. When referencing electric vehicles, you can't compare us to China. China is a much different culture that uses its vehicles for much different purposes. They mostly concentrate on pragmatic purposes: Commuting, trips to the market, etc. Most Chinese do not do long road trips just for the sake of doing long road trips (as we do), .... never mind taking their vehicles off-road to remote areas (and away from recharging stations).

Even ignoring the off-road part, we regularly take extensive road trips, often logging 600-800 miles in a day (Our highest was 1,080 in a day). These are not in the Jeep, but in another vehicle. But, even for medium length trips, all electric provides a challenge. We love exploring small towns, out of the way barbecue joints and diners, and generally keeping away from big cities. This is anathema to many cultures. A former co-worker of mine, who is Asian, asked "what is the purpose" of that type of trip (referring to our rural, small town getaways). To him, this type of trip was "Slumming it". Apparently, an enjoyable trip for his Asian culture centers around traveling to big cities, and preferably flying to them. That type of trip is not for us. We like to road trio it, and visit the small towns and rural areas. We easily can go all day without encountering a single charging station (Not that we were looking for them).
Another friend, who is big into electric vehicles (He has a Tesla), commented that for our rural trips, we can "detour here, or go X distance over to there" to be able to "simply charge the vehicle". So, basically, he is saying we would have to modify / change our route / trip somewhat in order to accommodate an all electric vehicle. No thanks. We have _never_ had to "go out of the way" for gasoline. Maybe we'll look at electric someday when it has a 1,200 mile range (meaning a "real" 800-900 miles). But, it is a big no for us at this time. (Refering to all electric, not a hybrid plug-in).

Those are very valid points but also very short sited. We don't currently have the infrastructure but it is always improving. And I totally agree about use case. But we need to be prepared for when this happens or we will be extremely far behind. I am not saying any manufacturer should be giving up on ICE but it makes sense to me to dump lots of money into future development.

 

[rforbes]

Precisely- I wanted a 2dr, V8, preferably with a proper close ratio Tremec, Nope. Might have gotten a Diesel if offered, Nope, ok with an automatic, Nope. After the final-final final V8 with a 4dr automatic, Nope, ya want power, you Must get a hybrid 4 dr automatic. The want power, requires hybrid goes well beyond Stella.
He did say in the interview that Ford offers both a T-6 and a V8 F-150. Clearly unhappy about Hemi’s stupidly being dropped.

I would say "you can't fit a V8 in a 2 door! but I had a 350 in my Cj-5, so I guess you can.

 

[gato]

The JL is not a Stellantis product. It is an FCA product. Stellantis barelly had a chance to make any major decisions since the merger that created Stellantis.

The JL is not a bad product, but it needs more investment to remain competitive. For example Bronco offers 37" tires on the Raptor and 35" tires on pretty much every model. F150 offers 37" tires. No Jeep product offers 37" tires. How can Jeep be upstaged in the most important thing for offroading - tire size. And it is infinitely easier to lift and add bigger tires to to solid axle vehicles. Ford did the engineering. Jeep? Nothing and even their 35" package is a kludge with no updravel.

The other item that Jeep needs to address is dealer and customer service. Folks buying $60K Wrnaglers and $100K Grand Wagoneers are being treated like hobos by dealers and Jeep. I love my JL, but I'm sick and tire of the endless run around to fix my hinge corrosion - they have worn me out. The only reason I hang on to my JL now is because I belong to an awesome Jeep off-road club.

 

[rforbes]

The JL is not a Stellantis product. It is an FCA product. Stellantis barelly had a chance to make any major decisions since the merger that created Stellantis.

The JL is not a bad product, but it needs more investment to remain competitive. For example Bronco offers 37" tires on the Raptor and 35" tires on pretty much every model. F150 offers 37" tires. No Jeep product offers 37" tires. How can Jeep be upstaged in the most important thing for offroading - tire size. And it is infinitely easier to lift and add bigger tires to to solid axle vehicles. Ford did the engineering. Jeep? Nothing and even their 35" package is a kludge with no updravel.

The other item that Jeep needs to address is dealer and customer service. Folks buying $60K Wrnaglers and $100K Grand Wagoneers are being treated like hobos by dealers and Jeep. I love my JL, but I'm sick and tire of the endless run around to fix my hinge corrosion - they have worn me out. The only reason I hang on to my JL now is because I belong to an awesome Jeep off-road club.

I am not sure differentiating Stellantis from FCA is all that meaningful. FCA still essentially exists inside of Stellantis.

As far as things like 37" tires. I mean, you are really talking about niche inside of a niche. The amount of broncos that are sold with 37" tires is a minuscule amount of their total sales. And the F150 is a large truck.

The dealer issue, is interesting. That is another one that I have had fine interactions with and others have not. That seems pretty consistent among all manufacturers.

 

[alphawolff]

I've personally seen our quality absolutely nosedive in the last few years. It didn't get excessively bad until late 2023 or so. It's not just the vehicles themselves, it's also the support teams from star to the parts suppliers.

From what I'm hearing they're on a hiring spree now to re-hire all those who were let go as a result of the cost cutting. They effectively cut so many positions it might a well been a ghost town when it comes to corporate operations, be it parts sourcing, engineering, or software development.

We also had the issue of letting highly experienced engineers go and replacing them with the absolute cheapest people available from low cost countries like India. Our STAR team has been completely outsourced for the first tier of support now. I get responses in broken English who don't read the case and simply copy paste repairs out of service library. It's so hilariously bad that I'm left in pure disbelief sometimes.

They've also tried to skim the dealer as well. Paperwork must have every T crossed and I dotted or they'll charge back entire claims. We've had them try to charge back $10k+ in rentals because we didn't "punch in" on a repair the day the car arrived, even though it was diagnosed and parts were ordered. They're actively punishing us with hilarious unachievable CSI scores due to horrendous build quality and absurd part availability. I've watched warranty labor times on repairs get cut over and over again month after month. It's all fun and games until the dealer and especially technician feel that working on your vehicle under warranty is a waste of time.

I've got a hybrid pacifica that needs a battery pack in my queue at the moment. I made a star case to get the part ordered over 3 weeks ago and STAR has yet to order it. Do you think this customer is going to leave a good survey? Fuck no. We've got a JL that needs an ABS module thats been here since May. The original supplier jumped ship and it took them half a year to source one. When we finally got it we found out that the new modules are effectively bricked and refuse to program. It's been 3 months since they put out a TSB about the issue and how engineering does not have a solution yet. Jeep cares randomly reached out and saying they're not paying for the owners rental anymore (Over $15k at this point, they refused to buy the vehicle back). On a 2023 that had ~7k miles on it. I'm not sure where that went but we got our Stellantis rep involved as it was complete nonsense.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to rant but things on the corporate side are bad right now. If we weren't dealing with a company with so much money to burn through it would've collapsed from shear incompetence. Hopefully with Traveres' ass out we can finally get the ship back on track and address the issues.

Then again, the Pacifica was voted the most unreliable vehicle in America two years in a row yet it was the best selling minivan of 2024. Maybe we're all cooked and the quality doesn't matter as people keep buying our products anyway so long as the MSRP isn't too ridiculous. The amount of Hybrid Pacificas I've seen that need transmissions in the first 5k miles is hilarious. They're still being built with defective units to this day.

 

[Kracka]

Can't be that bad... We've bought 4 new Jeeps in less than 6 years and enjoy the Hell outta them.

Have our GMs been more reliable? Absolutely 100% YES, but they're also incredibly boring vehicles that make you hate life (C8 Corvette included...sold it).

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