Head gasket time already?

[alphawolff]

Why do you replace the heads vs sending them to a machine shop?

Time, money, effort. The only reason you're sending a head to get machined is because you're trying to save money and time is not an issue. Having a bay tied up because you're waiting on a head isn't feasible in a dealership environment. We have sent heads to get machined before, but that's only in the situation where a new one simply isn't available and it's a cash repair.

Like 99% of our head gasket jobs are under warranty, so resurfacing isn't an option. If we had a blown head gasket and a cylinder head wasn't available and it's under warranty then it's getting an engine. We don't fuck around playing the part game when it comes to warranty, we're not in the business of saving Stellantis money. We're in the business if getting the vehicle repaired and back to the customer as quick as possible.

A 3.6L cylinder head is just under $700 MSRP, so they aren't insanely expensive. You're looking at under $1k in parts for a cylinder head replacement with all the gaskets. Most of the cost comes from the labor.

Generally if you're going to a trusted 3rd party shop you're doing it in the interest of saving money over the dealership route, and they might be more inclined to ship off the head to a machine shop. They can undercut the dealership pretty hard on labor costs, and getting the head machined adds a bit of icing on the cake cost wise.

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[mwilk012]

Time, money, effort. The only reason you're sending a head to get machined is because you're trying to save money and time is not an issue. Having a bay tied up because you're waiting on a head isn't feasible in a dealership environment. We have sent heads to get machined before, but that's only in the situation where a new one simply isn't available and it's a cash repair.

Like 99% of our head gasket jobs are under warranty, so resurfacing isn't an option. If we had a blown head gasket and a cylinder head wasn't available and it's under warranty then it's getting an engine. We don't fuck around playing the part game when it comes to warranty, we're not in the business of saving Stellantis money. We're in the business if getting the vehicle repaired and back to the customer as quick as possible.

A 3.6L cylinder head is just under $700 MSRP, so they aren't insanely expensive. You're looking at under $1k in parts for a cylinder head replacement with all the gaskets. Most of the cost comes from the labor.

Generally if you're going to a trusted 3rd party shop you're doing it in the interest of saving money over the dealership route, and they might be more inclined to ship off the head to a machine shop. They can undercut the dealership pretty hard on labor costs, and getting the head machined adds a bit of icing on the cake cost wise.

I was hoping that was your reasoning. We send heads to be machined at least once a week, I figure we should start expecting these in the next few years to be more and more common failing outside of warranty. Surely at some point they’ll issue an extension and repair, like the previous generation with bad heads.

 

[Jamrock]

I figure we should start expecting these in the next few years to be more and more common failing outside of warranty.

I agree. It is one thing when they fail within the warranty period. It is a whole other thing when they fail outside of the warranty period.

How many hours does it take to get to the point when you can remove the head? On a Jeep, what do you have to pull to get there?

 

[mwilk012]

I agree. It is one thing when they fail within the warranty period. It is a whole other thing when they fail outside of the warranty period.

How many hours does it take to get to the point when you can remove the head? On a Jeep, what do you have to pull to get there?

A lot. Intake, valve covers, Timing cover, timing chain, Camshafts all have to come out.

 

[Jamrock]

This is what I have seen with other vehicles.

Many years ago, I had a worn out radiator which caused my car to overheat. When the mechanic was replacing the head gasket, I saw this box with all these little parts of my engine.

It was the scariest thing I have ever seen. I was worried that he wouldn't be able to put the engine back together again.

 

[alphawolff]

This is what I have seen with other vehicles.

Many years ago, I had a worn out radiator which caused my car to overheat. When the mechanic was replacing the head gasket, I saw this box with all these little parts of my engine.

It was the scariest thing I have ever seen. I was worried that he wouldn't be able to put the engine back together again.

It really is like legos. Once you're experienced enough you just start making mental notes about where everything goes. The only real issue is remembering which bolt goes in which hole.

When I took the intake off to do diagnostic work on the 3.6L hesitation issue I somehow got the two bolts for the throttle body support bracket mixed up with the two bolts that hold down the air inlet accordion hose. When the fan kicked on it started hitting the longer bolts and making a clicking noise. Those bracket bolts are like 1/8th of an inch longer than the air hose bolts, but are otherwise identical. I thought I bent the fan shroud or something since I just spent a whole bunch of time sitting in the engine bay

 

[Jamrock]

It is like that.

Since then I have watched my friends do similar pull downs and rebuilds. There are very few people who I would trust to pull my engine down like that though.

I can understand why the dealers just replace the engine. There is a certain level of experience required and a good amount of labor hours.

If you ever get more insight into the root cause of this, please update the thread.

 

[bikenutty]

So I got a call from someone (sounded like a call center in India) saying they couldn't help me and they are closing my case. I asked for clarification but the language gap was so bad I couldn't understand her and when I asked questions it was like she was reading from a play book, just saying the same thing over. Mega frustrating, I am now in the @JeepCares doesn't care camp.

I am feeling quite screwed by them. dumping this turd. No reason given, no concerns shared. tough shit buddy.

I will be listing lots of takeoff parts for sale, permanently allergic to Stellantis. Had I done this to myself I would not even ask for goodwill. This sucks.

 

[alphawolff]

So I got a call from someone (sounded like a call center in India) saying they couldn't help me and they are closing my case. I asked for clarification but the language gap was so bad I couldn't understand her and when I asked questions it was like she was reading from a play book, just saying the same thing over. Mega frustrating, I am now in the @JeepCares doesn't care camp.

I am feeling quite screwed by them. dumping this turd. No reason given, no concerns shared. tough shit buddy.

I will be listing lots of takeoff parts for sale, permanently allergic to Stellantis. Had I done this to myself I would not even ask for goodwill. This sucks.

Call again and create another case. It appears both STAR and other support teams are being outsourced to India.

 

[bikenutty]

I have now asked the dealer to call on my behalf, but I am being told only the service manager can do it?

he's on vacation....

 

[Guinevere]

3

Lift kit and tires increased the engine load past oem parameters. Especially if not regeared.... Would be my argument.

nah this arguement wouldn’t work. I should be able to tow at maximum allowable load for the entire time I drive my jeep. I doubt 37’s and a lift put more strain than constantly towing 5,000 lbs 🤌

 

[alphawolff]

nah this arguement wouldn’t work. I should be able to tow at maximum allowable load for the entire time I drive my jeep. I doubt 37’s and a lift put more strain than constantly towing 5,000 lbs 🤌

I don't want to be the devil's advocate here, but it does. Rotational mass such as larger wheels/tires directly reduce engine performance and increase drivetrain stress. Going from 33s to 37s is orders of magnitude more difficult to the drive train than suddenly towing 5000lbs.

 

[Guinevere]

I don't want to be the devil's advocate here, but it does. Rotational mass such as larger wheels/tires directly reduce engine performance and increase drivetrain stress. Going from 33s to 37s is orders of magnitude more difficult to the drive train than suddenly towing 5000lbs.

but I have factory 4.88 gearing. Set for 35’s per factory on my Rubicon X. So in reality I am adding 2”

I am also not smart enough to calculate the difference in load on the engine increasing wheel size versus towing. But it sounded logical when I first thought about it.

 

[alphawolff]

but I have factory 4.88 gearing. Set for 35’s per factory on my Rubicon X. So in reality I am adding 2”

I am also not smart enough to calculate the difference in load on the engine increasing wheel size versus towing. But it sounded logical when I first thought about it.

It's not the gear ratio or lift. It's actual raw weight added by the bigger tires. It requires a significantly higher amount of torque to move those larger wheels then if you just loaded up the cabin with weight.

The lift allows the bigger tires (the lift itself is irrelevant to this other than reduced aerodynamics)
The gear ratio allows the engine to get into its powerband sooner giving the illusion of more power than is there at the cost of fuel economy.

The engine has to turn the transmission, which has to turn that driveshaft, and that driveshaft turns the axles, which is finally turning the wheels. It's what's known as "drivetrain loss". It's why your engine might be rated for 285HP but only see 200HP at the wheels. The wrangler is already bogged down by its beefed up drivetrain that adding larger tires really hurts it even further. It's why people recommend re-gearing when going for larger tires in hopes to regain some of that torque feeling they lost.

It's also why people with larger tires consider beefing up axles and other drivetrain components because the additional torque needed to turn those heavier wheels has a tendency to snap things.

 

[Franger]

BS meter is pegged. The reason people beef up drivetrains for off road vehicles is because of HOW the torque demands are being placed when rock crawling. Also for physical protection from obstacles but that’s another topic. It really doesn’t have anything to do with increased drivetrain mass via larger tires. The torque rating of an engine is the torque rating of an engine. Rock crawling places VERY unique demands on driveshafts and axles.

Also, to make an extremely important point, engines don’t have a clue what size your tires are or what your gearing is. ECU’s can be programmed for these changes for various reasons (speedometer, etc) but it doesn’t demonstrably change how the engine itself makes power. The engine “knows” fuel/air mixture and the associated rpm. That’s really it. You ask it to go via your foot, it obliges. Increased drivetrain mass takes more engine power to move due to inertia just as towing does.

To assert that large tires is somehow orders of magnitude harder on an engine than max towing is wildly inaccurate. Under certain circumstances, one or the other could be equally as harmful in the long term. Weight is weight. And yes, all weight on a vehicle isn’t created equal. But they aren’t orders of magnitude different.

All that to say, head gaskets aren’t blowing due to 37s. /rant

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