Faraday Box, for the Key Fobs

[roaniecowpony]

This video may help understand what capabilities are out there.

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[Pig-Pen]

I have a $5 faraday bag from amazon. The key barely fits so i dont even close the flap. I leave the key in the jeep 24-7, so i got it to keep the fob battery from dieing prematurely. The jeep wont start when the key is in the pouch, even with the flap open. Ive tried many times, on accident. I forget its in the pouch and just try to start the jeep and nada. I then remove the fob and it fires right up.

its easier and more conceable than leaving a metal box in the jeep. Although altoids can aint a bad idea. Unless the theif has bad breath!

 

[Heimkehr]

I've been debating potting the star connector there for this reason...

There may come a day when access to that connector is needed.

Keep us posted with anything you might do here, Chris. I too have wondered how, or if, the green blocks under the glove box can be hardened. I say "if" because I share the same concerns as what rc also posts.

 

[rdfact]

Ya know what would be cool - a key fob with a built in Faraday cage. ? Perhaps a slider that opens up enough so the FOB signal can get through in order to start the Jeep. Then when you get out you close that slider to block the signal.
Maybe not even possible? Hey @Threedom

 

[Gangplank]

The same way you don't press a key on the fob to start the car. Your fob and the car both have radios that always talk to each other. The only security feature is location and proximity. Aka, when you use as advertised you put key in pocket, sit down and start the car with the press to start. It all works without you knowing but the car and key in your pocket are talking. Now what thieves are doing with those funky antennae and backpacks with computers in them, is sniffing the signal from your key with backpack #1 then via communication with backpack #2 near and then in your car, "moving" your keys signal into the car just like it was there. The car can see no difference, it "sees" your actual key because electronically they moved the signal close and then into your car. There is no cloning, or replaying, those are other attacks that can work depending on the car and when it was made. Most modern cars have solved the "cloning and replay" attacks with hardware based encryption and public/private cryptography. You cant stop moving the actual key into the car. Unless you have a 2nd factor of authentication needed to start the car, aka Ravelco, Tazer, IGLA, your choice of immobilizer.

I have done actual work in this area using tools like software defined radios (HackRF) and its neat.
If you look on youtube for videos related to RollJam and Sammy Kamar you can learn alot. Also if you want to get even more worried about your electronic car beyond just stealing it, Charlie Miller and Chris Valasek have made some funny and terrifying research at a few Defcons I have been to and have some videos up as well.

If you want to protect your stuff, secure it with layers, and test them as folks have pointed out above. Test your security measures and improve them. Think like an attacker, act like a defender.

I saw this live and it was pretty cool...

you didn’t answer my question. Does this apply to ONLY cars with proximity/keyless entry or ALL with push button start.

I don’t have keyless entry. I do have keyless start. On my car you have to press the button to unlock the doors. So how do the relay thieves unlock my car?

 

[3TV]

It applies to any vehicle with a key fob. Our 392 has keyless entry, our Gladiator does not. A Faraday box prevents either vehicle from starting when the key fob is in the box. It also prevents keyless entry from working on the 392 when the key fob is in the box.

 

[ghorsepower]

you didn’t answer my question. Does this apply to ONLY cars with proximity/keyless entry or ALL with push button start.

I don’t have keyless entry. I do have keyless start. On my car you have to press the button to unlock the doors. So how do the relay thieves unlock my car?

In your case, I don't think thieves can press a remote button, no. If you don't have proximity unlock etc...

 

[BRuby]

We tested two different Faraday containers over the weekend. They were a wallet and a purse my wife had purchased. We put her key fob in either of them and closed them up tight. Then we tried to start her Jeep with her key fob inside the vehicle, but inside the Faraday container. The Jeep started right up with both of them. Then we wrapped her Key fob in aluminum foil and tried again. The Jeep wouldn't start with the key fob wrapped in aluminum foil. The dash displayed "Key fob not in vehicle" when she tried to start it.

So, be sure and test the Faraday container you buy. Just because it says it is a Faraday container doesn't mean it actually works. I suspect there are a fair amount of scam artist selling "Faraday containers".

Yep - glad the test helped

 

[sunset]

I wonder why key fobs don't come with on/off switches?

Anyway, couldn't I just skip this technology and go into Uconnect and disable the fob from working with the doors, then only use the physical key? In fact, couldn't I also remove the battery from the key fob and when starting the Jeep just hold it up against the Start button like they advise you to do if the battery in it is dead? It would be the same motions as in the old days, your hand and a key at the door lock, your hand and a key at the ignition keyhole.

 

[Mark75H]

I wonder why key fobs don't come with on/off switches?

Anyway, couldn't I just skip this technology and go into Uconnect and disable the fob from working with the doors, then only use the physical key? In fact, couldn't I also remove the battery from the key fob and when starting the Jeep just hold it up against the Start button like they advise you to do if the battery in it is dead? It would be the same motions as in the old days, your hand and a key at the door lock, your hand and a key at the ignition keyhole.

The RFI chip is a resonator that isn't powered by the battery, it would still be active on vehicles using it for unlock function.

 

[Gangplank]

The RFI chip is a resonator that isn't powered by the battery, it would still be active on vehicles using it for unlock function.

If you disable proximity locks they can’t get in. I have keyless start but not proximity locks. I have to push a button on the fob to unlock the door. So they can start my car but not unlock it.

 

[roaniecowpony]

⁶

I wonder why key fobs don't come with on/off switches?

Anyway, couldn't I just skip this technology and go into Uconnect and disable the fob from working with the doors, then only use the physical key? In fact, couldn't I also remove the battery from the key fob and when starting the Jeep just hold it up against the Start button like they advise you to do if the battery in it is dead? It would be the same motions as in the old days, your hand and a key at the door lock, your hand and a key at the ignition keyhole.

Sounds like those actions would prevent a long range relay cloning.

 

[sunset]

The rfid chip is a transponder. That means it only transmits in response to an RF inquiry from your vehicle (or bad guy transceiver). It is not always transmitting the coded signal. When the battery in the fob is dead or the rfid chip is out of the fob altogether, the rfid chip can be powered to transmit a very weak signal by placing it in very close proximity to an electromagnetic field , to energize the rfid chip enough to allow it to transmit a very short distance (like pushing the chip against the push-to-start).

Ah, that explains to me why they say I could hold a dead-battery fob right up against the push-to-start button and it would still work. A very short range. I suspect the transmitter is in the dash in the immediate vicinity of this button?

The RFI chip is a resonator that isn't powered by the battery, it would still be active on vehicles using it for unlock function.

Then what's the battery for, except to give it range in order to unlock a door from the outside when the transmitter with which it communicates is at a much further distance inside the vehicle?

Although, I don't think the rear cargo door on the (new) Rubicons have a physical key lock thus would require the RFID chip to open it? If so, and if the fob had no battery, for this to work very-short-range wouldn't that mean another transmitter is located in the vicinity of the back door handle? Really, what are the options for locking/unlocking the back door? My older non-Jeep cars have always had a trunk release button on the dash or nearby.

 

[Mark75H]

The non-proximity power locks are activated by a transmitter powered by the battery. The battery and transmitter also send radio transmissions to the panic horn/flasher signal.

The RFID functions and transmitter functions are different and work differently with different options. I am too lazy to write out a long post explaining both, but I'm sure someone else has the time and ambition.

 

[sunset]

The battery and transmitter also send radio transmissions to the panic horn/flasher signal.

I forget that there are other gimmicks, er features, to this key fob thing. I've never used one except in a rental car once.

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