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Faraday Box, for the Key Fobs

ghorsepower

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My ADHD brain is working. Seriously though try one key, only one key Vasilly, in the same tin with each respective car? Could be a BTLE bump in power post 2022? The tin foil wrap I have tried on my 2022 Jeep JL and 2022 Challenger SS and both have a no fob detected. Never tried danish cookie tins? My Jeep, Molon Labe baby, I can get another, don't care, my SS which i can't easily replace has counter measures way beyond tin foil...
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3TV

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This just in ...

After typing my last post, I checked email, and there was an email from UPS saying a package had been delivered. I checked on the front porch, and sure enough a package had been dropped off since I had been outside trying to start vehicles with my key fobs in a metal cookie tin. It just happened to be the actual Faraday boxes I had ordered from Amazon on November 10th.

Amazon.com: Faraday Key Fob Protector Box, RFID Signal Blocking Box, Faraday Box Signal Blocking Shielding Box for Car Key (L) : Automotive

What perfect timing. I loaded all ten key fobs into the box and went back out to try and start the vehicles. All five vehicles failed to start, with the dash display saying, "Key Fob Not Detected". So, this Faraday box actually works.

I wonder how many of these things are hit and miss? If you buy one be sure to test and see if actually works. And if you decided to use a tin cookie container, check that it works as well.
 

freaknasty

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My jeep is kept in the garage. So they have to make it into the garage. Then they have to make it past The German Shepherd.
 

roaniecowpony

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This just in ...

After typing my last post, I checked email, and there was an email from UPS saying a package had been delivered. I checked on the front porch, and sure enough a package had been dropped off since I had been outside trying to start vehicles with my key fobs in a metal cookie tin. It just happened to be the actual Faraday boxes I had ordered from Amazon on November 10th.

Amazon.com: Faraday Key Fob Protector Box, RFID Signal Blocking Box, Faraday Box Signal Blocking Shielding Box for Car Key (L) : Automotive

What perfect timing. I loaded all ten key fobs into the box and went back out to try and start the vehicles. All five vehicles failed to start, with the dash display saying, "Key Fob Not Detected". So, this Faraday box actually works.

I wonder how many of these things are hit and miss? If you buy one be sure to test and see if actually works. And if you decided to use a tin cookie container, check that it works as well.
Whoa! After reading this, I took our "Faraday" cookie tin (stainless steel) out to my wife's Flex (jeep is loaned out) to check. The prox door lock opened and I was able to start the car. I was floored.

I came in the house and found a silicone gasket under the lid and removed it. With the lid just setting on it loosely, the prox locks still opened and it started. If I pressed the lid tightly, it would block the signal.

My wife is ordering a Faraday box as I type this.
 

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DaltonGang

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Whoa! After reading this, I took our "Faraday" cookie tin (stainless steel) out to my wife's Flex (jeep is loaned out) to check. The prox door lock opened and I was able to start the car. I was floored.

I came in the house and found a silicone gasket under the lid and removed it. With the lid just setting on it loosely, the prox locks still opened and it started. If I pressed the lid tightly, it would block the signal.

My wife is ordering a Faraday box as I type this.
There is more to it than that.

At work yesterday one of my staff was throwing away a metal tin that had contained Christmas cookies. It was an all-metal container about 2 1/2" tall and about 8" in diameter. You know, the kind they have Christmas cookies in. As I saw her throwing it away, I thought to myself, "Self, that looks like a Faraday container to me". So, I snatched it out of the garbage, washed the cookie crumbs out of it and took it home. I was happy because I thought I had me a free Faraday container. It is entirely made of metal after all, and seals tightly enough that it will keep cookies fresh for a month or so. Last night I put all ten or our key fobs in it, thinking I had this topic covered.

Tonight, I went out and got in each vehicle to see if it would start with the key fobs inside the metal container.

2019 Dodge Challenger RT - would not start, dash display said "Key Fob Not Detected".
2022 Jeep 392 XR - started right up like nothing was wrong
2022 Ram TRX - started right up
2023 Jeep Gladiator Mojave - started right up
2023 Ram 3500 Cummins - started right up.

And all 10 key fobs were tightly sealed inside the same all metal container the whole time. What gives? Why did the newer vehicles start even with their key fob sealed in the same metal container as the 2019?

Aluminum lined boxes and bags have been used as "Faraday" radio wave blocking containers. Try lining the box with aluminum foil, then try it again.
 

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Does this only apply to comfort access / passive entry?

I have the keyless start (with remote start button) but I have to pull out the key and press the button to unlock the car.

I’m trying to understand how they can relay my FOB if I’m not pressing a button to send the signal.
 
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ghorsepower

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Does this only apply to comfort access / passive entry?

I’m trying to understand how they can relay my FOB if I’m not pressing a button to send the signal.
The same way you don't press a key on the fob to start the car. Your fob and the car both have radios that always talk to each other. The only security feature is location and proximity. Aka, when you use as advertised you put key in pocket, sit down and start the car with the press to start. It all works without you knowing but the car and key in your pocket are talking. Now what thieves are doing with those funky antennae and backpacks with computers in them, is sniffing the signal from your key with backpack #1 then via communication with backpack #2 near and then in your car, "moving" your keys signal into the car just like it was there. The car can see no difference, it "sees" your actual key because electronically they moved the signal close and then into your car. There is no cloning, or replaying, those are other attacks that can work depending on the car and when it was made. Most modern cars have solved the "cloning and replay" attacks with hardware based encryption and public/private cryptography. You cant stop moving the actual key into the car. Unless you have a 2nd factor of authentication needed to start the car, aka Ravelco, Tazer, IGLA, your choice of immobilizer.

I have done actual work in this area using tools like software defined radios (HackRF) and its neat.
If you look on youtube for videos related to RollJam and Sammy Kamar you can learn alot. Also if you want to get even more worried about your electronic car beyond just stealing it, Charlie Miller and Chris Valasek have made some funny and terrifying research at a few Defcons I have been to and have some videos up as well.

If you want to protect your stuff, secure it with layers, and test them as folks have pointed out above. Test your security measures and improve them. Think like an attacker, act like a defender. :)

I saw this live and it was pretty cool...
 
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Terrymo

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ecidiego

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My understanding is that thieves will open the hood (default is no alarm sounding), remove the alarm fuse, then open a door (variety of non destructive methods to do this), open the glove compartment, plug in key programmer to the star connector, program a new key fob (30 seconds), start the Jeep and drive off.
I've been debating potting the star connector there for this reason...


Your post was glossed over by many and is the #1 way Jeeps get stolen.
 

roaniecowpony

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The rfid chip is a transponder. That means it only transmits in response to an RF inquiry from your vehicle (or bad guy transceiver). It is not always transmitting the coded signal. When the battery in the fob is dead or the rfid chip is out of the fob altogether, the rfid chip can be powered to transmit a very weak signal by placing it in very close proximity to an electromagnetic field , to energize the rfid chip enough to allow it to transmit a very short distance (like pushing the chip against the push-to-start).
 

Terrymo

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The rfid chip is a transponder. That means it only transmits in response to an RF inquiry from your vehicle (or bad guy transceiver). It is not always transmitting the coded signal. When the battery in the fob is dead or the rfid chip is out of the fob altogether, the rfid chip can be powered to transmit a very weak signal by placing it in very close proximity to an electromagnetic field , to energize the rfid chip enough to allow it to transmit a very short distance (like pushing the chip against the push-to-start).
Thanks for that synopsis! That cleared up some information and misinformation I had in my mind.
 

roaniecowpony

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Thanks for that synopsis! That cleared up some information and misinformation I had in my mind.
I should add, that it also transmits the coded signal when you depress a button on the fob and there's a good battery in place.
 

roaniecowpony

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I've been debating potting the star connector there for this reason...


Your post was glossed over by many and is the #1 way Jeeps get stolen.
There may come a day when access to that connector is needed. Maybe just put some kind of physical plate/enclosure, blocking access, requiring multiple fasteners to be removed, to slow them down a lot and unexpectedly.
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