Ecodiesel Eco-nomics & Issues

[treillw]

I see people saying "Delete and Tune" diesel engines. What exactly does that mean? Would it help it to run better?

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[00 Trans Ram]

I see people saying "Delete and Tune" diesel engines. What exactly does that mean? Would it help it to run better?

My guess is "delete" some emissions equipment, and then "tune" the ECU.

 

[BDinTX]

My guess is "delete" some emissions equipment, and then "tune" the ECU.

Yep this. It also voids your warranty and can get you a fine from the EPA. Not many companies still produce these because the only way it was "legal" was for offroad use only vehicles.

 

[GearWhore]

Last several years the EPA has really cracked down on this. GDE (Green Diesel Engineering) was one of the main ones and I was looking at it for my Grand Cherokee diesel when nearing the end of the factory warranty. Around the time I was ready to order in 2018 or 2019 they were fined by the EPA and had to do a major recall and pay a very hefty fine. I believe their customers at the time were just out the $600-$900. Diesel Bros in Utah were also fined for similar modifications to emissions equipment.

In my opinion now, not worth it. The ecodiesel is a great motor and works well enough as-is. And I get to keep my warranty intact.

The air quality is also crap so frequently on the Wasatch Front here in Utah (and even seeping into other parts of the state) that I'll take my emissions equipment happily in exchange for getting the diesel goodness.

 

[BroncoHound]

Just like on gas engines after the emissions crunch in the early 70's, emissions technology on diesels is much better now than when it was first mandated/introduced in 2007-08. My 2008 6.7L Cummins pickup was a nightmare for the first 20k miles of ownership, exclusively due to the emissions equipment. I was one of the early adopters of delete technology (an original beta tester for Edge, Bully Dog, and Smarty) and the 265k miles of ownership post-deletes on that pickup were incredible. I'll love that pickup and look fondly back at her for the rest of my days; but ultimately the primary reason I sold her last year was reading the tea leaves regarding emissions deleted diesel vehicles and the EPA's particular focus on them these past few years.

The EPA hasn't been coming after private owners yet, but they've REALLY hammered the aftermarket tuners and shops that have been supporting emissions deleting in diesels, to the point they've put some of the bigger names in diesel tuning out of business (like H&S) and have tied up shops that have installed this equipment in fines and litigation to the tune of millions, forcing most shops to throw their hands up in surrender. Because of all this, most reputable shops won't take the chance with messing with emissions deleting anymore and as a result, any emissions deleting hardware and software that comes out for a newer platform like the Ecodiesel Wrangler would likely be coming from a previously unknown tuning source based somewhere outside the US. I would be very skeptical regarding where the stuff is coming from, how its getting into the United States, the competency of the tuner (an improperly tuned diesel can melt itself into oblivion pretty quickly), and what kind of after-sale support you'd receive from these grassroots "tuners."

And, back to my original point, the upside isn't nearly as dramatic now as it was in 2008. Deleting my '08 Cummins took me from 13mpg hand calculated bobtail freeway fuel economy to 21mpg instantly, along with more trailer pulling power, zero maintenance/repair concerns, and classic Cummins reliability. No more clogged turbos, no more stuffed DPF's, no more EGR cleaning, no more dash lights, no more limp mode. These days, deleting the newer 6.7L Cummins pickups doesn't yield anywhere near as dramatic of performance results and the reliability of the emissions system isn't nearly as questionable as it was back then (it's a totally revamped emissions strategy). Nowadays, I personally feel the upside is much lower (I seriously doubt deletes and a tune would get an Ecodiesel Wrangler to 40mpg on 37's which is the performance threshold that would force me to rethink my position) and the downside is much higher (fewer/no hardware options, no after-sale support, increasing federal eyes on the topic).

I see this as history repeating itself. How common was it in the 70's and 80's for a hotrodder to buy a car and IMMEDIATELY rip the catalytic converters out, pull the smog pump, and put a bigger carb on to "unlock" the real potential of the car? Now how many people rip the emissions equipment off a new Hellcat Challenger when they buy one? I didn't with my Hellcat; she ran pretty damned good all the way up to 170mph in 5th gear (6MT) and I had no reason to suspect cutting the cats off the exhaust would get me to 200mph any faster. We're a bit earlier in the journey with diesel vehicles in the US, but we're along the same path. In a few more years I doubt anyone will even be talking about deleting a brand new diesel vehicle anymore.

 

[phageghost]

Oh, I'm definitely at sea level. That helps quite a bit. But, the humidity should hurt.

You'd think so, since it sure hurts our ability as humans to stay cool. But that's because we mostly stay cool using evaporative cooling of perspiration, and the rate of evaporation goes way down with higher humidity. But vehicles don't use evaporative cooling, just convection from the hot radiator, and the specific heat of air actually goes up with higher humidity (since water vapor can absorb more heat than air per unit volume). So, counter-intuitively, even though we feel like we're going to die, higher humidity (for a given temperature) makes it easier for cars to stay cool.

 

[Wrangler man]

This was a great post except for the last 4 or 5 sentences. That part was just a rant that had nothing to do with the great points you were making. Who cares if people buy Rubicons as a status symbol. I should hope more people do. Without them the cost of the Rubicon would go drastically up because the economies of scale would be much less. Heck, without them there might not even be a Rubicon trim.

You

This was a great post except for the last 4 or 5 sentences. That part was just a rant that had nothing to do with the great points you were making. Who cares if people buy Rubicons as a status symbol. I should hope more people do. Without them the cost of the Rubicon would go drastically up because the economies of scale would be much less. Heck, without them there might not even be a Rubicon trim.

 

[Wrangler man]

This was a great post except for the last 4 or 5 sentences. That part was just a rant that had nothing to do with the great points you were making. Who cares if people buy Rubicons as a status symbol. I should hope more people do. Without them the cost of the Rubicon would go drastically up because the economies of scale would be much less. Heck, without them there might not even be a Rubicon trim.

Darrell you seem to know quite a bit for being a brand new diesel owner. So please do share for us that may be considering putting in an order. Based on your following quote "The market right now is good enough that you can get away with that as long as you buy it from the factory and at around 6-8% under invoice which is easy to do." I must be ignorant along with several others because you seem to have the knowledge we don't. So please share how. You seem to have all the answers. You also claim you had your Jeep fully loaded except for the cold air intake. I have the engine block heater came as an extra even though I didn't want it you claimed it wasn't available? You also claim you ordered every option? I see your pictures and I could see you don't have the M/Ts which is an off option, and you do not have the black grill option so you're just a lot of talk and a lot of BS. Those are just a few observations from your pictures. I'm sure I could find a half a dozen more where you opted not to order as you claim you did. Be careful in that Tex mall strip, I'd hate to see you get a crack in your plastic bumper. Just another Rubicon mall crawler

 

[Deleted member 59498]

I asked him if he had the block heater for another discussion some of us were having. And no it does not seem to be an option anymore. He was just answering for us that were wondering where it went. Don't think he was saying he was an expert on everything.

Just saying

 

[Deleted member 59498]

I bought the Rubicon because they are cool, look good, resale very well and because they told me I could get 20 more HP with Rubicon sticker!!

 

[Wrangler man]

I'm basically this person. My JLURD will have a winch and I will take it up to Rausch Creek here in PA to make sure I know how to use its capabilities, and maybe I will go do some more serious off-roading (not just trails) once every few years with a buddy, but 99.9% of its life will be on asphalt. My challenge will be keeping it clear of the Costco shopping carts.

I could be wrong and maybe I'll want to be off-roading all the time but on the east coast, we don't have the same offerings as the folks out west.

Let's just hope that when you go to use your lockers or sway bar disconnect they're not frozen solid from lack of use. Honestly without having the experience of being on the trails and using them when you need them you won't know how to use them correctly anyway so it doesn't matter. At least you have the Rubicon sticker to show how cool you are

 

[BroncoHound]

I bought the Rubicon because they are cool, look good, resale very well and because they told me I could get 20 more HP with Rubicon sticker!!

Plus a Rubicon will get you laid.

 

[Wrangler man]

I asked him if he had the block heater for another discussion some of us were having. And no it does not seem to be an option anymore. He was just answering for us that were wondering where it went. Don't think he was saying he was an expert on everything.

Just saying

Well then maybe you're right. Maybe the heater is no longer an option. Just like steel bumpers are no longer an option and M/T's are no longer an option just take a look at his pics of his rig after he claims he ordered every available option just shy of the cold air intake. Just calling a spade a spade.

 

[Wrangler man]

Plus a Rubicon will get you laid.

May you get all the women that feel that way. Be careful of the mall Patrol. They might be alerted to your fogged up windows, and the moans of "Rubicon" " "oh Rubicon"

 

[BEACHED WHALE]

I just put in my order today. Ill probably wipe it w/ a soft cham and admire the beautifulness of a new toy that I worked/working thousands of greasy hours for. Im more excited about this engine then the others for all the obvious reasons.

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