Does anyone actually like start-stop

[RussJeep1]

I won't go so far to say I like it, although I like what it represents: more below.

But I will say I don't mind it.

Vehicle manufacturers have been given mandates to increase gas mileage. I don't think this a bad thing. Scientists on all sides of the political spectrum highly concur that global warming and CO2 levels from hydrocarbon production present serious problems to our very existence: if not immediately then within our grandkid's lifetime. Even if this feature was something I found annoying, I'm willing to do my part to conserve energy. The feature has never affected my ability to accelerate.

Let me cite a reverse analogy and not get to far off topic. Years ago water pumps were expensive as were generators to power them in a blackout. Communities spent millions of dollars to build and maintain water towers to not only have water pressure to fight fires when electrical power was interrupted, but to even out the use of pumps and run then at night, when demand was low, to store water in the tank for morning showers. This paradigm is changing somewhat with cheaper (more reliable computer controlled) pumps, and generators to run them in an emergency to meet demand real time.

Our electric grid is moving in the opposite direction, and should. Until recently electric demand was real time. More and more less efficient generators were fired up in peak demand times, to meet real time demand. A better solution is to run the most efficient generators all the time and store their output in batteries: which are becoming better.

That vehicles move in this direction is a good thing. Your kid's cars will drive themselves and run on batteries. And by the way, Wranglers and batteries are actually a match made in heaven. Variable torque, like than needed off road has been shown to come much better from electric than combustion power.

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[jmcdtucson]

It seems to work better in a hybrid like a Prius because the hybrid battery will get you started rolling in that split second that it takes the gas engine to start.

 

[Wanderingwheelz]

A vehicle at idle is using a tiny, tiny amount of gas (which translates to a tiny tiny amount of polution). So to save some thimble full of gas every month, we have to deal with the weirdness of the shutdown, the lack of smoothness, the potential effect on longevity, and the complexity of the system.

It's a bad tradeoff.

Here’s what I suggest you do:

Find at least a 5 mile stretch of bumper-to-bumper beach or city traffic. Reset your dash MPG computer to 0. Travel exactly 5 miles. Record your MPG.

Repeat the exact above exercise with ESS turned off.

Now picture your thimble. Then try your best to imagine how many dozens of thimbles full of gas you just spent your money on that you pissed away unnecessarily.

Listen. I’m all for freedom to do as we please as long as we don’t make things worse for others. I recycle. I try to conserve fuel.. buy a Prius... I GET IT. I don’t want a Prius, though. My daily driver gets more than 10 mpg better than the garage queen weekend toy that is my Wrangler. I’d never drive a Wrangler as my daily driver since there are automobiles that are far better designed to be daily drivers. I don’t wear ski boots to work. I wear them to ski. I’m on track to retire at 50 due to being smart how I spend my money (and having a high earned income, too).

I do my best to buy products from companies that are socially responsible. Jeep is trying to add features to its products that are better for people. I vote republican, too, so don’t accuse me of being a zealot. I’m not a tree hugger or overly sensitively to preserving the environment to the marked detriment of humans.

I just try to do the right thing. I try to use products for the way they were designed. That’s all.

 

[S2k Chris]

So if you're driving your vehicle one hour per day and idle for 10 minutes of that hour, thats about 2.5 gallons in a month. 150 Gallons over 5 years, 500/600 bucks of gas or so, depending on prices.

That sounds like a big number, until you compare it with what your total fuel cost was over that same time period.

Let's say you drive 20,000 miles a year (probably what you'd have to do to drive an hour per day). Divide by 20mpg, that's 1000 gal/year, 5,000 gal for 5 years, $3/gal that's $15,000. Suddenly that $500 sounds pretty tiny.

 

[S2k Chris]

Here’s what I suggest you do:

Find at least a 5 mile stretch of bumper-to-bumper beach or city traffic. Reset your dash MPG computer to 0. Travel exactly 5 miles. Record your MPG....I’d never drive a Wrangler as my daily driver since there are automobiles that are far better designed to be daily drivers...

I just try to do the right thing. I try to use products for the way they were designed. That’s all.

Part of the reason I'm suddenly now getting a Wrangler to drive daily is because I, not long ago, moved at considerable expense to my family, from a nice big house 30+ miles away from work to a small old house 6 miles away. And similar proximity for my wife. I don't have 5+ miles of bumper to bumper traffic that I encounter more than 1-2x a year, by design. So I didn't need an ultra-efficient daily driver any more because my commute is so short. So when I get yapped at for not caring about every last mpg, and the argument ignores (or, in fairness, is unaware of) the HUGE amount I spent to move way closer and save a ton of gas, it annoys me a bit.

 

[Wanderingwheelz]

That sounds like a big number, until you compare it with what your total fuel cost was over that same time period.

Let's say you drive 20,000 miles a year (probably what you'd have to do to drive an hour per day). Divide by 20mpg, that's 1000 gal/year, 5,000 gal for 5 years, $3/gal that's $15,000. Suddenly that $500 sounds pretty tiny.

$15,000 invested at a conservative 6.5% will give you enough in savings to retire 2 or maybe even 3 years early if you’re 40 years old and retire at 63 instead of 65/66.

More Americans need to start using their heads. The median 50 year old household only has about a $50,000 net worth due to short sightedness when it comes to wealth building. Burn extra gas if you want to. Hell, burn Benjamin’s is you want to. It’s your future. Only saying.

 

[TheWingman]

$15,000 invested at a conservative 6.5% will give you enough in savings to retire 2 or maybe even 3 years early if you’re 40 years old and retire at 63 instead of 65/66.

More Americans need to start using their heads. The median 50 year old household only has about a $50,000 net worth due to short sightedness when it comes to wealth building. Burn extra gas if you want to. Hell, burn Benjamin’s is you want to. It’s your future. Only saying.

The ESS system on a $40k unnecessary expenditure is not going to help anyone with their financial troubles. lol

 

[S2k Chris]

$15,000 invested at a conservative 6.5% will give you enough in savings to retire 2 or maybe even 3 years early if you’re 40 years old and retire at 63 instead of 65/66.

More Americans need to start using their heads. The median 50 year old household only has about a $50,000 net worth due to short sightedness when it comes to wealth building. Burn extra gas if you want to. Hell, burn Benjamin’s is you want to. It’s your future. Only saying.

Eh? So don't drive? What "most Americans" have is probably not relevant when we're talking about a vehicle that costs, in most common trims on this board, from $40-50k+, before extensive aftermarket modifications.


My only point is that it seems like an awful lot of engineering work, and a generally unsatisfying result, to save a very small amount of gas and money.

 

[Wanderingwheelz]

Part of the reason I'm suddenly now getting a Wrangler to drive daily is because I, not long ago, moved at considerable expense to my family, from a nice big house 30+ miles away from work to a small old house 6 miles away. And similar proximity for my wife. I don't have 5+ miles of bumper to bumper traffic that I encounter more than 1-2x a year, by design. So I didn't need an ultra-efficient daily driver any more because my commute is so short. So when I get yapped at for not caring about every last mpg, and the argument ignores (or, in fairness, is unaware of) the HUGE amount I spent to move way closer and save a ton of gas, it annoys me a bit.

I didn’t mean to annoy you a bit. Hell. I didn’t even know you moved. Where should I mail the housewarming gift.

 

[viper88]

It seems to work better in a hybrid like a Prius because the hybrid battery will get you started rolling in that split second that it takes the gas engine to start.

The engine starts right as you lift off the brake not when you step on gas pedal. e-Torque helps also.

 

[viper88]

That sounds like a big number, until you compare it with what your total fuel cost was over that same time period.

Let's say you drive 20,000 miles a year (probably what you'd have to do to drive an hour per day). Divide by 20mpg, that's 1000 gal/year, 5,000 gal for 5 years, $3/gal that's $15,000. Suddenly that $500 sounds pretty tiny.

You might only travel 8-10 miles in a hour of driving in Chicago traffic. Took a hour and 20 minutes to get back downtown from O'Hare last friday. lol.

 

[twisty]

I won't go so far to say I like it, although I like what it represents: more below.

But I will say I don't mind it.

Vehicle manufacturers have been given mandates to increase gas mileage. I don't think this a bad thing. Scientists on all sides of the political spectrum highly concur that global warming and CO2 levels from hydrocarbon production present serious problems to our very existence: if not immediately then within our grandkid's lifetime. Even if this feature was something I found annoying, I'm willing to do my part to conserve energy. The feature has never affected my ability to accelerate.

Let me cite a reverse analogy and not get to far off topic. Years ago water pumps were expensive as were generators to power them in a blackout. Communities spent millions of dollars to build and maintain water towers to not only have water pressure to fight fires when electrical power was interrupted, but to even out the use of pumps and run then at night, when demand was low, to store water in the tank for morning showers. This paradigm is changing somewhat with cheaper (more reliable computer controlled) pumps, and generators to run them in an emergency to meet demand real time.

Our electric grid is moving in the opposite direction, and should. Until recently electric demand was real time. More and more less efficient generators were fired up in peak demand times, to meet real time demand. A better solution is to run the most efficient generators all the time and store their output in batteries: which are becoming better.

That vehicles move in this direction is a good thing. Your kid's cars will drive themselves and run on batteries. And by the way, Wranglers and batteries are actually a match made in heaven. Variable torque, like than needed off road has been shown to come much better from electric than combustion power.

The global warming thing is so politically charged it has taken on a mob like mentality or religious cult aspect. Scientists who disagree are ostracized, complete with body snatcher finger pointing and screams. LOL When it gets like this the rational have a Spock eyebrow up.

The rational also want to clean up stuff where they can without joining the mob or going a nutzo and preaching the global warming religion. If one is in that religion, best they sell the jeep. lol

I also have to wonder about the pollution, it takes to make the extra batteries sensors, along with the weight, also the replacements when they go bad. The gas it takes when they go bad plus what it uses to get to the shop. the hours in lost productivity, on and on. It would be interesting to see the REAL weighted cost of "clean"

Thinking ESS is a pimple when you consider everything and might even cause more. My ESS isnt working right so I've been trying things in an effort to find the problem. Lots of test drives happening, hope my kid doesnt die as a result.....

 

[Wanderingwheelz]

The ESS system on a $40k unnecessary expenditure is not going to help anyone with their financial troubles. lol

My Sport cost me $32,332- cash. 7.5% under invoice. I’m frugal, and I doubt it’ll put 2,500 miles a year out on it, so I’m the last person who should be looking at my mpg. Who cares when you’re only filling it up several times a year. It’s peanuts.

I get your point, and I generally agree with it. My only point was that a person can conserve fuel as part of a much larger wealth building philosophy and ESS is a tool that can be used to that end. If you’re able to find a couple of dozen other areas to save some money on a regular basis, just like fuel, then you’re putting yourself in a position to thrive rather than survive. It goes far beyond canceling cable. I have cable by the way.

I justly deserve some criticism. I can take it.

 

[viper88]

It uses more fuel at idle than you think. It still has to turn all of the accessories on the belt (Alternator, A/C compressor, Power Steering Pump, coolant pump, ect...) Basically using fuel to power things that don't need to be powered while the vehicle is stopped. Whats the point in using all that when you're not moving?

You are right it's substantial. Engineers are addressing fuel consumption at idle. FCA and other car companies are switching to electric assisted steering, electric a/c compressors, electric cooling pumps. Not sure about the 3.6 but the 2.0 has a generator, electric assisted steering and cooling pumps for the e-Torque if I am not mistaken? Auxiliary electricity source operates heater, A/C blower fan, audio system, wipers and headlights when the engine is off. It's complex but can be very reliable. Toyota has been doing it for years and has been very reliable. Hopefully FCA is as reliable.

 

[d3vils-advocate]

I've learned that if you don't depress the brake down all the way, you can still stop w/o having to worry about it shutting off. It's very easy to do once you get used to doing it, but tbh it doesn't really bother me one way or another anymore.

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