Buying Soon: Engine Option Questions...

[JeepAdmin]

Thanks all for the input. Appreciate the reponses despite this probably being 413th time asked.

I’ve owned two TJ’s and a JKU. All had the 4.0 or the weak 3.8 (2008MY). Over the last several years me and the buddies (like lots of Jeepers) have thought about diesel swaps. But when FCA announced this I decided to wait and look into the 3.0.
Fast forward a couple years and here we are. I think part of me wants the diesel cause you just kinda default to it being a great engine for off roading. All that low end torque for getting over things and not having to throw earth all over the place. (Always dreamed of a 4BT in a JKU.) And now that I’m all but ready to pull the trigger, I get these occasional horror stories. I’m not blaming you for sharing them or giving your opinions, don’t take it that way. It’s just now what you want to hear when you’ve waited this long.
My commute is 26-34 miles depended on what plant I’m going to. 90% is highway driving doing 55-65mph. There are literally 5 lights, all in the last 6 miles. So I think the 3.0 would be okay for reasons listed (needing a longer commute to justify). But I also want it for off roading. We would go north halfway often. And way up north it can get challenging. Could the 2.0T do all that? I assume so. Maybe I should do some more homework.
I would most likely just run 35’s on it all the time. I’m not one who needs a 4” lift with 37’s or 40’s. Not much around me for all that.
Was the first year of 3.0 in the MY2020 wranglers? So they’ve had a year to work out some of the smaller bugs (outside a major design change).(?)
I’m still interested in the 3.0, but I guess you guys have talked me into waiting and putting more into the 4 popper

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[JeepAdmin]

The right thing to do. I should just get a second car for the DD.

 

[aldo98229]

I have the 3.6 and get around 22-23 mpg as well. I really like the simplicity of the V6 and do not have the BSG as I have a 6-speed manual. I had concerns of the 48V system on the 2.0 when I was preparing to order. I have the opposite mentality as Mercedes "Why make it simple when we can make it complex".

I’m very happy with the 3.6 V6 as well: it’s smooth, responsive and refined.

But I can’t seem to break past 20 MPG. Of course the 33” KO2s don’t help, and most my driving is made of short trips around town.

 

[aldo98229]

Thanks all for the input. Appreciate the reponses despite this probably being 413th time asked.

I’ve owned two TJ’s and a JKU. All had the 4.0 or the weak 3.8 (2008MY). Over the last several years me and the buddies (like lots of Jeepers) have thought about diesel swaps. But when FCA announced this I decided to wait and look into the 3.0.
Fast forward a couple years and here we are. I think part of me wants the diesel cause you just kinda default to it being a great engine for off roading. All that low end torque for getting over things and not having to throw earth all over the place. (Always dreamed of a 4BT in a JKU.) And now that I’m all but ready to pull the trigger, I get these occasional horror stories. I’m not blaming you for sharing them or giving your opinions, don’t take it that way. It’s just now what you want to hear when you’ve waited this long.
My commute is 26-34 miles depended on what plant I’m going to. 90% is highway driving doing 55-65mph. There are literally 5 lights, all in the last 6 miles. So I think the 3.0 would be okay for reasons listed (needing a longer commute to justify). But I also want it for off roading. We would go north halfway often. And way up north it can get challenging. Could the 2.0T do all that? I assume so. Maybe I should do some more homework.
I would most likely just run 35’s on it all the time. I’m not one who needs a 4” lift with 37’s or 40’s. Not much around me for all that.
Was the first year of 3.0 in the MY2020 wranglers? So they’ve had a year to work out some of the smaller bugs (outside a major design change).(?)
I’m still interested in the 3.0, but I guess you guys have talked me into waiting and putting more into the 4 popper

Sounds like you need to test drive the different motors before deciding.

There’s absolutely no resemblance between the 3.6 V6 on my JL and that on my prior JKs, let alone the 3.8 before that. This new Pentastar is buttery smooth, and with the 8-speed automatic it is quite responsive. And the 2.0T feels surprisingly spunky, especially around town.

There’s no substitute to test driving them to figure out what you like and dislike about each motor. Having said that, you may have a hard time finding an EcoDiesel in stock to test drive.

 

[JeepAdmin]

The 3.0 seems to still hold mid 20’s on the MPG scale after the bigger tires and some mods (winch etc). Can the 2.0 carry all that without having to downshift to 6th gear at 60+mph?
I remember the 3.8 having a hard as hell time on the 4.10s with 35’s doing anything over 60-65. Thats all I can see with these other two motors outside of the 3.0. ‍

 

[DaltonGang]

Here's what someone posted about his EcoDiesel on another forum --edited for brevity:

"Well, my 2020 EcoDiesel is now in it's 3rd week in the shop. No solid ETA. I took it there in late July when it started dripping oil on my driveway and the front of the block was wet.​

​

On the various forums and Facebook owner groups, I've seen everything from oil leaks to CAC hose failures to EGR failures to completely blown engines with metal shavings in the oil pan. So, it's starting to appear to me that the 3rd Gen engine with it's "80% new" construction is the same European garbage that we had before, and I'm becoming frustrated with it. I paid $5,000 UPCHARGE to get this engine and it's already let me down unlike any engine I've had before at such low mileage...​

​

In addition to that, I don't think ...are doing a good job of explaining the real ownership cost picture with the EcoDiesel. Sure, you get a real world benefit of 5 miles per gallon. But, nobody mentions that diesel fuel is sold at only 50% of stations according to AAA and diesel is more expensive which wipes out all your savings. They don't mention that oil changes are 4X more expensive, there's a $40 fuel filter that also needs to be changed every 15,000 miles, and repairs take forever because parts need to come overseas. DEF is $20 per tank. You also have to alter your driving habits because normal highway driving does NOT produce the 650+ degree temps needed to naturally clean the DPF. Throttle response is horrendous because of the turbo and the exhaust components being used to control emissions. I think if the average consumer were made aware of how life truly is with the EcoDiesel they'd be less inclined to buy one.​

​

I liked mine a lot before it let me down because I tow fairly heavy loads for a half-ton truck. But this will likely be the last diesel in my driveway. I'll gladly take the 5 MPG penalty to have a truck that I feel I can trust." ​

​

--WXman​

These are some very important points. I own a diesel truck, and they are much more expensive to keep up. But, it is an 2006, without the emission restrictions that all new diesels come with. This is why I still have my 2006, and all my buddies with new ones are constantly having issues. Well, those that didnt rip the emission junk off have issues, the others are issue free.

 

[rickinAZ]

Do the math for how many miles of gas saving it’s going to take to break even on the Diesel engines extra costs.

I don't think that that is even close to important to most EcoDiesel buyers. If you buy a $60K Jeep, you are not looking for breakeven point. It's all about torque.

 

[JeepAdmin]

For me, this will most likely be my DD (at least initially) and my wheeling rig. What MPGs are you guys with the gas engines seeing with larger tires and heavier upgrades, (bumpers/winch)? My commute is 90% highway miles so that's why I think I can justify the 3.0. I understand the it'll take forever to recoup the added funds for the option, but I'm thinking that I still get 22-24mpg with all the mods and its a good engine for wheeling.
I DO need to drive the gas engines. My local dealer has JL with the 3.0 and two JTs in route. Ironically, no 2.0's. Gonna have to go find one.

 

[Toycrusher]

For me, this will most likely be my DD (at least initially) and my wheeling rig. What MPGs are you guys with the gas engines seeing with larger tires and heavier upgrades, (bumpers/winch)? My commute is 90% highway miles so that's why I think I can justify the 3.0. I understand the it'll take forever to recoup the added funds for the option, but I'm thinking that I still get 22-24mpg with all the mods and its a good engine for wheeling.
I DO need to drive the gas engines. My local dealer has JL with the 3.0 and two JTs in route. Ironically, no 2.0's. Gonna have to go find one.

3.6 & 6 speed. 15-15.5 regardless of conditions. 9 towing. Basically stock except tires

 

[Headbarcode]

The 3.0 seems to still hold mid 20’s on the MPG scale after the bigger tires and some mods (winch etc). Can the 2.0 carry all that without having to downshift to 6th gear at 60+mph?
I remember the 3.8 having a hard as hell time on the 4.10s with 35’s doing anything over 60-65. Thats all I can see with these other two motors outside of the 3.0. ‍

My 2.0 JLUR is rolling 38x13.50's on 3.5" lift. Every linkage and arm in both the steering and suspension systems have been replaced with stronger and heavier pieces. Also, it's still on stock 4.10 gearing. Tire size has been reprogrammed with a Tazer so my speedo is correct, which gives the transmission an accurate baseline for it to properly adjust its shift points. I only drop down into 7th in a headwind or when I'm wanting to maintain a specific speed on an incline.

Most people that clamor about the diesel are interested in the mpg and/or the torque curve. What often gets overlooked, is the very long pay back period to offset the initial upcharge of the motor and its higher maintenance. Also, the taller 3.73 gearing, even in the Rubicon, negates a good chunk of the torque advantage.

I would highly suggest that you do multiple road tests, with different vehicles, to see for yourself how great the 2.0 really is.

Just this morning on my way to work on the highway, I was easily able to snap from 70 to 80+ to get around a leaking sand trailer. This motor is definitely capable of running at speeds that border on stupid, for even a stock wrangler.

 

[emptyminded42]

Since it appears your buying the Jeep for the joy of driving a Jeep, you may as well enjoy driving it in it's most pure and enjoyable form, a manual transmission.

That makes engine options simple, 3.6 V6.

I originally disliked the missing low end torque of the v6, but found that a Centerforce clutch completely changes the engine and give it a diesel-like low end torque feel (and performance to a point).

I get 15 in mixed driving and on 37s. In the scheme of things, fuel economy is one of the most minute costs of owning a Jeep, with modifications being the most expensive part :D

How does changing a clutch give you more torque? That's... not possible. The clutch is just the mechanical link between the engine and transmission. It can't perform torque multiplication or increase engine power. Maybe you just like how it engages more but really am puzzled on your claims of increased performance.

Returning to the rest of the thread - why do people care about what gear you are in the highway? The ratios are so tight you're talking a couple hundred RPM at highway speeds. As long as it's not annoyingly loud, sucking down fuel, or constantly hunting for gears I don't see why it matters. Sure, if it's a manual it gets annoying downshifting for hills but with an automatic it will do all that for you.

As for wheeling - does a diesel really help? On paper it does have gobs or torque but even diesels need to spool up turbos to create power and torque. Don't see how it's that much better than a gas 2.0T. A V6 would be more directly controlled since there's no turbo to spool up but you do deal with less torque. But I'm having a hard time seeing that in 4Lo the V6 wouldn't be able to tackle everything short of crazy rock crawling which you don't plan to do anyway.

Again - focusing on MPG is the wrong metric - look at this chart for 15k miles per year. You save - at most - $250/year at 15k miles/year of driving by picking the Diesel vs. the V6 6MT. That's an insanely long payback time. No matter how you slice it, you're going to be spending more on the diesel overall than any of the gas engines. Maybe you'll get significantly stronger resale but I think that resale bump only turns out over a very long ownership timeline.

 

[Toycrusher]

How does changing a clutch give you more torque? That's... not possible. The clutch is just the mechanical link between the engine and transmission. It can't perform torque multiplication or increase engine power. Maybe you just like how it engages more but really am puzzled on your claims of increased performance.

" but found that a Centerforce clutch completely changes the engine and give it a diesel-like low end torque FEEL (and performance to a point) "

You are correct, it does not change the power output of the engine, so on any sort of dyno test, it would likely reduce the peak engine torque. However, the flywheel "stores" torque that the engine produces. Dead dinosaurs end up converted into rotational mass. It takes more dead dinosaurs to get that flywheel spinning, fuel economy is reduced.

BUT, when you let out the clutch, all that stored energy is released into the transmission for greater force exerted on the wheels. You can climb grades/obstacles significantly better without having to rev the engine into it's powerband to reach the necessary applied wheel torque.

Add in the great traction of the large single disc over the engineered slippage of the twin-disc, and you have feedback you can use to make intelligent decisions with your feet.

It drives like a diesel or V8 in that you can apply much more torque without engine input compared to the stock setup. If you've driven a 4.0 TJ, it's a VERY similar feel

 

[emptyminded42]

" but found that a Centerforce clutch completely changes the engine and give it a diesel-like low end torque FEEL (and performance to a point) "

You are correct, it does not change the power output of the engine, so on any sort of dyno test, it would likely reduce the peak engine torque. However, the flywheel "stores" torque that the engine produces. Dead dinosaurs end up converted into rotational mass. It takes more dead dinosaurs to get that flywheel spinning, fuel economy is reduced.

BUT, when you let out the clutch, all that stored energy is released into the transmission for greater force exerted on the wheels. You can climb grades/obstacles significantly better without having to rev the engine into it's powerband to reach the necessary applied wheel torque.

Add in the great traction of the large single disc over the engineered slippage of the twin-disc, and you have feedback you can use to make intelligent decisions with your feet.

It drives like a diesel or V8 in that you can apply much more torque without engine input compared to the stock setup. If you've driven a 4.0 TJ, it's a VERY similar feel

Gotcha. I didn't realize we have a dual-mass flywheel stock and the Centerforce kit converted to a heavier single-mass flywheel. Makes sense. Thanks for the info and clarifying - definitely learning a lot on this forum. I wouldn't have expected anything but a simple single-mass, single-disk clutch on a Wrangler.

Sounds like whenever my OE clutch wears out/breaks the Centerforce is a great option. I have noticed that my JLU takes quite a lot of slippage to get moving vs. my other manuals but it's also way heavier and that's what I chalked it up to.

 

[Toycrusher]

Gotcha. I didn't realize we have a dual-mass flywheel stock and the Centerforce kit converted to a heavier single-mass flywheel. Makes sense. Thanks for the info and clarifying - definitely learning a lot on this forum. I wouldn't have expected anything but a simple single-mass, single-disk clutch on a Wrangler.

Sounds like whenever my OE clutch wears out/breaks the Centerforce is a great option. I have noticed that my JLU takes quite a lot of slippage to get moving vs. my other manuals but it's also way heavier and that's what I chalked it up to.

What your feeling is the dual clutch. I'm assuming it's supposed to grab both discs equally, but that was not happening in my case. As you let out the clutch, it would grab the first disc hard but the second disc had little no no force exerted on it, so I could keep feeding rpm and releasing on the clutch pedal, but it took even further travel before enough pressure would be exerted on the 2nd disc (splined to transmission input) to actually put the power down. It felt like a burnt out clutch for the first 3rd of the pedal travel and then a sudden full engagement. Irritating

 

[aldo98229]

3.6 & 6 speed. 15-15.5 regardless of conditions. 9 towing. Basically stock except tires

TFL tested a JT EcoDiesel towing 5,000 lbs: they got 8.5 MPG. Which apparently is about the same as every other midsize truck they have tested.

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