Best Setup for RV Flat Tow

[lightsout]

I don't see what you are referring to. I do know that it sounds very dangerous to connect to something that is not attached to the frame. Since the maximus3 is attached to the frame, there not a good option to attach.

I sure hope they are *not* attaching to the bumper

The problem is if the tow connection on the maximus and the safety connection is only 1" away and is so close it is subject to damage if the tow connection is damaged. Look just takes a rock hit or scrape to potentially damage the Maximus loops (both potentially since they are so close). Tow bar connection do occasionally brake.

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[Redbaron73]

The problem is if the tow connection on the maximus and the safety connection is only 1" away and is so close it is subject to damage if the tow connection is damaged. Look just takes a rock hit or scrape to potentially damage the Maximus loops (both potentially since they are so close). Tow bar connection do occasionally brake.

Again -- I am asking you to research...all the companies connect to the same structure. Most have it within 1". Some have it as far as 4". Doesn't matter how close or far...it is the same metal. All the companies use less metal than the Maximus3.

I did the google search, and posted a video link below of ReadyBrute Force - another player.

Watch the whole video here:

Here is a screen shot

And to address your earlier comment. I am *NOT* an engineer. I do have common sense, and ability to look on the internet and see how other companies are doing things. I also have taken the time to call Maximus and discuss the connection *prior* to my purchase, and ensure that it was tested and certified for use as a tow point.

It was during this conversation with the company that designed, and insured the product for this application, that I learned just how over engineered it actually is.

I chose to stick with my Roadmaster tow bar since Blue ox does not service tow bars that are older than 10 years, and they have such a high failure rate. I had the same discussion with Roadmaster, and they reviewed the Maximus connection and said that it was a good option. Of course they wanted to sell me their solution, but readily admitted the Maximus looked better and offered many more features.

I don't post this information for anyone to take at face value. Its on the internet, so it should be checked and verified. Forget all the "theory" - go to the source. Talk to your towbar company. Talk to Maximus.

 

[JDub11]

I would say the saftey chains are for tow bar failure. If they were for failure of the mounting loops on the jeep then you could say the same thing about the hitch. the saftychain mounts are welded to the receiver tube. I am surprised your 5th wheel has saftey chains unless they are aftermarket. Most do not as they are not required with a kingpin connection. I am curious about your hitch. Mine uses all 4 pucks to mount so I'm not sure where you are hooking up your saftey chains independently. Also where do they mount on the trailer.

 

[Redbaron73]

When I had a 5th wheel, the chains attached to the box. The chains got in the way more often causing head injury while setting up and breaking camp. Even when stowed properly, I always managed to hit them.

Only one time did they do their job, and that was when I dropped the trailer into the truck bed. I didn't set the kingpin properly. Low speed accident, but sure did get the blood moving.

 

[lightsout]

When I had a 5th wheel, the chains attached to the box. The chains got in the way more often causing head injury while setting up and breaking camp. Even when stowed properly, I always managed to hit them.

Only one time did they do their job, and that was when I dropped the trailer into the truck bed. I didn't set the kingpin properly. Low speed accident, but sure did get the blood moving.

5th Wheels by default to not have chains the King Pins are treated the same as commercial trucks and trailer and do not have them. The only time you have chains with a 5er is with the Andersen Hitch (that I use) which is a relatively new product and the reason being the Andersen Hitch is a Ball Connection and in a small handful of States (Not Texas) requires all ball hitches to have safety chains. So are you sure you had Chains, (never seen chains on a king pin rig). Regardless even on 5th Wheel and bumper tow rigs Safety chains are NEVER on the same Piece of metal as the actual tow connection metals.

Like it or not there is a reason that there is not a SINGLE tow plate manufacture that locates the safety connection on the same piece of metal that the tow connection is Just look at the example above. You do not have to be a Rocket Scientist to figure out why. Whereas only Maximus does which is not a tow specific/centric company. I think it is a great tow connection they just missed the mark on the safety connection.

This is just like all the moronic statements early in this thread that said it was OK to tow from the bumper when MOPAR specifically says not to as the bumper is not directly connected to the frame.

The likely bigger issue primarily towing with Gas Motorhomes is many are towing beyond their weight Capacity especially with Wranglers. as I leaned that I was also even though my 2017 35K Bounder was rated for 5000K towing and my Sahara weighed in at 4900lb at the catscale, even when my RV was dry I was 460lbs over weight (we also CAT scaled the combo. If I had A Rubicon it would have been even more. There was a recent article in Motor Home Magazine showing many states now are starting to require RV's to go through weight stations on random days. It highlighted a station near the Salton Sea in California where they found a high percentage of over weight recreational vehicles, while they were not ticketing they were requiring disconnection and those towing motor vehicles to drive the car separately and those with Trailers to have to pay for commercial towing to remove the trailer. This same article highlighted that this practice was becoming more regulated and enforced in many states and more every year are doing the same. That 5000lb tow rating is a hitch rating not a GCWR. So on many Gas RV's you can eat up 1/2 of your GCWR on camping gear alone. This was the exact reason we bought a Sahara over the Rubicon as we knew we could not legally tow a Rubicon due to weight, as it turns out we were over weight with our Sahara.

One of my neighbors is a traffic accident reconstructionist he said they will check all the weight numbers in an accident. in the 5-er and bumper tow world this is becoming an even bigger issue. In fact I just read a story the other day near St Louis there was a accident involving an RV which was not at fault and was still able drive, even though they were not at fault they were escorted to the weight station to verify there were within GVCW.

there are simply too many out there including many here that prefer to just fly by the seat of their pants and lack regard for others on the road.

Let the Flaming Begin....

 

[lightsout]

Again -- I am asking you to research...all the companies connect to the same structure. Most have it within 1". Some have it as far as 4". Doesn't matter how close or far...it is the same metal. All the companies use less metal than the Maximus3.

I did the google search, and posted a video link below of ReadyBrute Force - another player.

Watch the whole video here:

Here is a screen shot

And to address your earlier comment. I am *NOT* an engineer. I do have common sense, and ability to look on the internet and see how other companies are doing things. I also have taken the time to call Maximus and discuss the connection *prior* to my purchase, and ensure that it was tested and certified for use as a tow point.

It was during this conversation with the company that designed, and insured the product for this application, that I learned just how over engineered it actually is.

I chose to stick with my Roadmaster tow bar since Blue ox does not service tow bars that are older than 10 years, and they have such a high failure rate. I had the same discussion with Roadmaster, and they reviewed the Maximus connection and said that it was a good option. Of course they wanted to sell me their solution, but readily admitted the Maximus looked better and offered many more features.

I don't post this information for anyone to take at face value. Its on the internet, so it should be checked and verified. Forget all the "theory" - go to the source. Talk to your towbar company. Talk to Maximus.

So a Vlogger is your AFICIONADO. Look no one is arguing that the Maximus is not a good tow connection, it just lack good safety connection. Look all they had to do which some have done on their own is add and eye bolt or plate at once of the frame bolt connections as that removes the safety connection from the tow connection. Easy peasy, would cost Maximus another $5 max to provide that. But I suppose that ti high a price for added safety and compliance.

 

[Durango]

At the risk of being accused of flaming...Lightsout, you are posting things as fact that simply are not.

I go past the Salton Sea at least four times a month on the expressway, and there's no weigh station there. And if you look at the CHP weigh station listings/map, you'll see there's none at all in the area. So the claim the CHP is requiring RV'ers to go through the weigh station there is simply not true. I do pass other weigh stations elsewhere (west and north of the Salton Sea) on the same journey and have yet to see any RV in one. CA law is very specific about who can be req'd to go through one - best you read up on it.

As for your claim that no mfr attaches safety chains to the same point as the tow point (not a quote) - that simply isn't true. I have had, and still have, bumper pull trailers who's safety chain attachment points are welded to the same tongue as is the ball hitch, and the receiver hitch assy on every truck and motorhome I've owned has the safety chain attachment points as part of the hitch assy. And very few if any people attach the safety chains to anywhere other than those two holes in the hitch assy designed for attaching the safety chains.

And about accident investigations including weight and capacity verifications - that's a myth often perpetuated on the internet, but being a person who's been in total damage accidents, I can speak from experience that the insurance companies have not done weight verifications before paying off. (if you think about it, there's little ability to weigh everything after an accident - things adding up like gear and such are most often removed prior to the insurance company doing their appraisal. And no insurance policy I've ever had specifies weight issues as an exception to them not paying a claim.)
Not to say they won't at some point - and FTR, I do not tow overweight out of concern for my and others' safety.

That all being said, I now am wondering about the Maximus brackets...I just might thread a safety cable through some other part of the Jeep frame to attach the towing safety cables to, versus attaching them to the D-rings I have in the brackets. But then to be fair, I should do the same on the coach too...
And FTR, I have seen hitches detach from motorhomes (people pulling stackers weighing way more than the hitch rating) and tow bars break (poor welds) but have never seen a tow bar bracket break free from a towed vehicle. That being said, I probably will now!

 

[Redbaron73]

Things that are more likely to go wrong involve the safety cable itself, and how the cable attaches to the motorhome and toad.

I posted previously on the road master quick connects. I have used them for years. As I was trying to get a setup for my Maximus, I discovered those links are only rated for 2000lbs.

The fact that we have not heard about this being a problem tells you how few tow bars actually break. Still once I knew this was under rated I replaced all of these with a connection rated at 10k, same as the tow bar and safety cable.

 

[JDub11]

I'm not trying to start a pissing match here, but I am also seeing a lack of facts. First I haven't seen where the second hole on the maximus is for saftey chains. I believe it is a recovery point for d rings. They have mentioned customers have used them for that purpose, they have also mentioned other options. Blue Ox also says you can use there provided convenience hooks, but recommend using other options. I would like to point out on other options the safteychain mounts are attached to the same steel tube as the tow connections are mounting to. This steel tube is welded to what would basically be the maximus mount. The maximus mount at this point is more then double the other options thickness and uses 2 extra mounting points. It seems to me the other options have at least two more failure points before getting to the towbar and saftey chain connections. FYI my rv can tow my 1ton and my jeep and my other jeep and prolly a Prius so scales aren't an issue.

 

[Redbaron73]

This hasn't been a pissing match, but rather a healthy discussion with safety being everyone's focus.

 

[Durango]

...First I haven't seen where the second hole on the maximus is for saftey chains. I believe it is a recovery point for d rings. They have mentioned customers have used them for that purpose, they have also mentioned other options. Blue Ox also says you can use there provided convenience hooks, but recommend using other options. I would like to point out on other options the safteychain mounts are attached to the same steel tube as the tow connections are mounting to. This steel tube is welded to what would basically be the maximus mount. The maximus mount at this point is more then double the other options thickness and uses 2 extra mounting points. It seems to me the other options have at least two more failure points before getting to the towbar and saftey chain connections. FYI my rv can tow my 1ton and my jeep and my other jeep and prolly a Prius so scales aren't an issue.

True - I haven't seen specific direction to use the second hole for safety chain attachment - but my question would be, if it's designed for (and therefore strong enough for) recovery, why wouldn't it be as strong for safety chains? If you look at it anecdotally, recovery is going to exert more tension on it than would towing (assuming your tow vehicle isn't relying on the aux brake of the Jeep to stop the tow vehicle!).
I'm confused by what you mean when you talk about a steel tube on other options and the safety chain mounts, and that steel tube being welded to the Maximus mount. On my steel bumper application, the Maximus brackets are bolted to the frame directly. And in fact, they have both lateral and longitudinal bolts - capturing the attachment on two different axis. That's better than many others.

I used to tow my 1 ton 4WD Crew Long bed PU using the same Blue Ox model towbars I use now on the Jeep - and the tow bar brackets were custom made welded onto the truck frame - something which is debatable as to it's strength given the science of welding/fabricating, but I never had a problem with that application. I worry most about the tow bar itself breaking - a friend recently had his Blue Ox bar break at a weld, and then the other weld broke as it put all the stress on it in an angle it wasn't designed for. His safety cables kept the damage from being way worse (as did some tricky driving skills!) on his F-150 and his DP.

 

[JDub11]

I completely agree with what you are saying about the maximus 3 tow loops, and use that location myself for saftey chains. I was just stating that they didn't say this was the intended purpose. I also agree that the towbar is the most likely failure point, I believe that I also stated that. If you look at the other base plate options you will see the square tube that the towbar mounts and saftey chain loops are mounted to. This square tube is welded to two plates that bolt to the frame. I was stating that these plates are basically the maximus 3 tow points. Only these plates aren't even a 1/2 the thickness of the maximus mounts, and they use less mounting points. I was also trying to point out that the maximus tow looks have fewer failure points because they dont rely on all the extra welded connections the other base plates have. The maximus 3 tow loops are also completely seperate so if one side does fail, the other side will not be affected.

 

[lightsout]

This is quite the moronic Think Tank...

When you talk about safety chain mounting points on the tow vehicle they are separate from the hitch tube, if the hitch connection fails the safety points will likely remain in tact which is why most safety chain connection are also welded to the hitch framing and not soley the receiver tube.

Fact is most use the second Maximus tow loop as their safety connection, whereas Maximus may not designate that is the whole point of this discussion, it should not be used in the even t of a maximus failure. A receiver failure is unlikely to impact the safety connection. Look at the BlueOX Tow Plate the safety connection on on a different plate located away from the tow bar connection.

Safety connections are not only for failure going down the road they are also designed to keep TV and TOAD together in the event of an accident, when a tow bar is most likely to fail. A tow bar failure can also likely cause the mounting point to fail, hence the reason for safety chains to be remote from the actual tow bar connection. Additionally most tow bar failures are not at the TV receiver but at the TOAD connection.

The issue with the Maximus is they provide NO secondary safety connection.

I go past the Salton Sea at least four times a month on the expressway, and there's no weigh station there. And if you look at the CHP weigh station listings/map, you'll see there's none at all in the area. So the claim the CHP is requiring RV'ers to go through the weigh station there is simply not true. I do pass other weigh stations elsewhere (west and north of the Salton Sea) on the same journey and have yet to see any RV in one. CA law is very specific about who can be req'd to go through one - best you read up on it.

Because you drive by the Salton Sea 4 times a month does not make you an expert of random inspections. It was a station near the Salton Sea. To think that towables are not evaluated for being over weight when in involved in an accident is absurd. that is why GVCW exist in part and their are LAWS that support compliance. there are a lot of accidents resulting from morons thinking they are pull beyond their limits. But since you are above the LAW it does not matter anyway.

The Big picture is and this applies to GAS Motorhomes the Wrangler is is too heavy for most gasser MH which puts safety connections at the fore front. Tow ratings for MH also have to take into consideration all added weight to the MH (which draws away from the tow weight) and with many Rubicons coming in at OVER 5000lbs that is problematic (My Sahara was 4900lbs). While your MH may be rated for 5000lb by the time you add gear, water or grey and black tank you will almost always exceed the rated GVCW when towing a 4-dr Wrangler. While your Towbar and connection may not fail with normal driving, accidents, hard stops and sharp corners can be a problem especially when over weight. Thats what my points focus on. Whether failure during normal driving conditions or stressing events it is all about keeping both vehicles connected. Everyone here is only focused on normal driving conditions.

I would bet that few if any have actually taken their TV and TOAD to the CAT scale (loaded) and even know what weights they are towing

 

[Durango]

This is quite the moronic Think Tank...

When you talk about safety chain mounting points on the tow vehicle they are separate from the hitch tube, if the hitch connection fails the safety points will likely remain in tact which is why most safety chain connection are also welded to the hitch framing and not soley the receiver tube.

Fact is most use the second Maximus tow loop as their safety connection, whereas Maximus may not designate that is the whole point of this discussion, it should not be used in the even t of a maximus failure. A receiver failure is unlikely to impact the safety connection. Look at the BlueOX Tow Plate the safety connection on on a different plate located away from the tow bar connection.

Because you drive by the Salton Sea 4 times a month does not make you an expert of random inspections. It was a station near the Salton Sea. To think that towables are not evaluated for being over weight when in involved in an accident is absurd. that is why GVCW exist in part and their are LAWS that support compliance. there are a lot of accidents resulting from morons thinking they are pull beyond their limits. But since you are above the LAW it does not matter anyway.

The Big picture is and this applies to GAS Motorhomes the Wrangler is is too heavy for most gasser MH which puts safety connections at the fore front. Tow ratings for MH also have to take into consideration all added weight to the MH (which draws away from the tow weight) and with many Rubicons coming in at OVER 5000lbs that is problematic (My Sahara was 4900lbs). While your MH may be rated for 5000lb by the time you add gear, water or grey and black tank you will almost always exceed the rated GVCW when towing a 4-dr Wrangler. While your Towbar and connection may not fail with normal driving, accidents, hard stops and sharp corners can be a problem especially when over weight. Thats what my points focus on. Whether failure during normal driving conditions or stressing events it is all about keeping both vehicles connected. Everyone here is only focused on normal driving conditions.

I would bet that few if any have actually taken their TV and TOAD to the CAT scale (loaded) and even know what weights they are towing

Wow - we're all morons but you, eh? Sorry.

Are you not aware that tow bar mounting assemblies and towing hitches, almost always have the safety chain mounting as part of that assembly? I don't believe anyone here said they thought the receiver tube itself would fail - it's that hitch assembly including the receiver that if fails, or the Blue Ox tow bracket that if fails, would be no better than the Maximus since all are an assembly that is bolted onto the vehicle.

As for your comment about the inspections at Salton Sea - you originally said at a weigh station at the Salton Sea. There is none there, and there is none nearby, and the CHP does not carry portable scales to do weight inspections of RVs elsewhere - so I have to cry BS. And as I said, I have firsthand knowledge of weighing not being part of accident investigations. In fact, when I mentioned this to a couple truckers, they laughed at me saying in all the accidents of trucks they've been witness to or involved in, there often is no ability to weigh, since loads are often removed in order to remove the vehicle from the accident sight and hauled off by the load owner/transporter. As I said, the same happens the majority of time with RVs - the damaged vehicles are taken to a repair shop and not weighed. Have you ever been in an accident to know what happens? And how does that translate into me being above the law?...

As for towing behind a gasser, if the tow ratings of the coach are not exceeded, then that does not "draw away from the tow weight". There is a rating of the coach max weight, which includes the max hitch weight (not the overall weight of the toad), a rating of the max towed weight, and a rating of the overall weight of the coach and the toad - if I'm not mistaken. Keep the coach under it's max weight, and the toad under it's max weight, and you should be fine.

Also, all towing components are rated at weights they are designed to withstand in turns, stops, etc. - normal driving conditions...not just ideal driving conditions. And yes, I have weighed my Wrangler. And no, I don't fill it up with cargo when I tow it. But I have put cargo (including a golf cart) in my pickup when towing it, staying mindful of it's rating and then overall rating of the Blue Ox tow bar (10K lbs) - I am close to the max but not over, and I do so confidently knowing the components are designed to deal with this weight under normal driving conditions including turns and stops that the combined unit can safely make. NO tow equipment mfr can know what stresses will occur in an accident, given all the variables in an accident, and NO equipment mfr claims their equipment will hold up in an accident better than others - how can they know since they don't crash test these bars in all the combinations of vehicles they make the equipment for. (I do cease using the tow bars that have twenty thousand or so miles on them for towing 8K vehicles with 1200 lbs cargo, relegating them to use on lighter vehicles after that, but that's not due to any experience with them failing or because the mfr recommends that)

I am beginning to wonder why you continue to troll this issue...

 

[lightsout]

I guess you need it explained in ELEMENTARY terms. First off GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) and GCVW (Gross Combined Vehicle weight Rating) are rating provided by the chassis manufacture (most gas class A are Ford F53) not the RV manufacture, the RV manufacture has to stay within those limitations. That tow rating is based on what is left over once the RV body is built and the RV'ers contents plus fuel passengers, water, grey and black tank levels.

For example my 2017 Fleetwood Bounder 35K on the F53 Chassis has a GVWR of 22,000 lbs (that is the max I can load it to which is not hard to do if wet), the GCWR is 26,000 lbs. The Tow rating is 5,000lbs, however there is on only 4,000 lbs between the GVWR and the GCWR. So when the TV is loaded including people gear, tanks you can easily be near at or above the GVWR in that case pretty much all JLU's exceed the two rating of the RV, Those stock tow ratings are a ford rating prior to RV Body and does not take into consideration of RV loading. Another example, of how those tow ratings mean nothing is Thor makes the same floor plan as the Bounder 35K on the exact same chassis although they have only 19" wheels vs the more robust 22" wheels on the Bounder, however the Thor is rated at 8,000 lbs towing, According to the dealers this is only a marketing number as even dry the RV does not have enough GCVW left, in fact even 5000lbs is a stretch for the Thor as well.

The Point is the Published tow rating means absolutely NOTHING as most Gassers after loaded and partially wet with 2-4 people will not have the GCVW left over to legally tow JLU's. When I towed with the Bounder I towed completely dry 1/3 water for emergency, Wranger Fuel less than 1/2 when possible. My Wrangler scaled just over 4900lbs.

You are a fool to think that the GVWR and GCWR are arbitrary numbers and not enforced when needed, or in the event of accidents, While not all vehicles post accident can be weighed many can if it is suspect that there there was loading negligence involved.

Responsible towing is knowing you are within the published limits of each vehicle both TV and TOAD.

There are many factors the Ford f53 Brakes are crap and towing beyond the limits is also stressing them as inertia braking systems only activate in delay and steep down hills that need braking doe speed control inertia brakes have little impact (Sometimes down shifting is not enough when towing a 5000.lb wrangler. Keep in mind my Sahara has 35's and winch and a few other mods. a Rubicon modded can easily be 5500-6500lbs which even exceeds the published hitch ratings.

While I understand those that cannot accept these facts think they are above the law, the Law is starting to crack down. The Salton was a geographical reference I never said it was physically at the lake it was near the lake you are simply splitting hairs.

As for the Maximus I think it is a great tow bar connection I am only suggesting the safety chains be located on a separate piece of metal. I would not expect the Maximus or mist tow plates to failed under normal towing but you in the event of an accident then it is stressed it is intended to keep the toad connected to the TV. Most Tow Bar incidents are likely during accidents.

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