Best Setup for RV Flat Tow

[RubiJR]

Folks really should nopt respond to technical discussion when they do not have the techical chops. It does not matter what the aftrermarket engineer thinks when the OEM manufacture says itr IS NOT engineered for the forces of flat towing. Sencondly the entire bumper assembly is designed as part of the CRUMPLE ZONE hence designed to fail upon impact to reduce impact forces. Why this is important is a hard stop while towing your Wrangler can activate the CRUMPLE zone. I can tell you 1st Hand as I had damage from this extact event. A 5mph Hard stop broke my frame horns (Before I had frame tied towing.

LOD is a JOKE, IMO some of the worst engineering I have seen.
1. Ther so called "Frame Tie in Bracket" does not even attach to the frame it bolts to the bumper plate and the frame horn which is NOT the frame, in fact Maximus 3 had a similar bracket up unitl last year connected to the exact same location as the LOD bracket causeing many broken frame horns, like below (never tow from the frame horn like the LOD bracket). Frame horns cannot handle any stress. Call LOD yorself and ask them if that bracket actually bolts tothe FRAME (not the frame horn) they will tell you NO (I have had that conversation with them both on the phone and on JL Forum...

Here is the Close up of the LOD Bracket. LOD as even admitted on the JL Foriums that thier bracket does not even touch or connect to the frame, again a total joke.

below is the installation of that bracket, see for your self it only bolts to the frame horn and the bumper plate (not the frame itself). The only reason the frame horn exist is to support the plastic water and mud guard that comes stock with the wrangler it is not structural

Now if you use a LOD Bumper he is the potential and no frame tie in would save you from this. As I have menetioned the weakest link of any tow system is the welds, this is a LOD bumper where the wrangler disconnected going down the road as the welds could not handle it.

Now i think this demonstrates the the lack of expertise these aftermarket bumper engineers posses.

Soerry but you called out the wrong person, I am an engineer myself and have had two failed towing system, I have done a deep dive over this subject. For what it is worth this is what I use now Maximus 3 with Frame Tie in Kit. This system has NO welds to rely on

The Only way you should every bumpoer tow is to use a frame chop bumper like the Tomohawk where you cut the end off the frame slip the bumper sleves over the frame and thu bolt but note you still have welded D-rings to worry about

https://motobilt.com/products/tomahawk-frame-chop-front-bumper-for-jeep-jk-jl-jt

I appreciate your response as I am not an engineer so I thought I was having a discussion and not a monologue. I will take your engineer's opinion as a valued one along with the others. If you say you have spoken with you LoD and Jeep engineers I believe you and choose not to say anything derogatory like "Folks really should nopt respond to technical discussion when they do not have the technical chops." You may want to re-read your posts going forward or your valued engineering opinion may not be taken as well. It sounds like a tow bracket would be best and I have no doubt you have researched and spoken to the engineers of them so Maximus 3 with Frame Tie in Kit must be the best way to go. I had no intentions of challenging your engineer opinion nor cause any grief. As I mentioned I am not an engineer so I rely on personal experiences and of course your engineering experience. Are there any other engineers opinions I should stay away from like Lod engineers. Jeep should really stop these aftermarket engineers from creating problems for the Jeep Brand

Sponsored

 

[lightsout]

I appreciate your response as I am not an engineer so I thought I was having a discussion and not a monologue. I will take your engineer's opinion as a valued one along with the others. If you say you have spoken with you LoD and Jeep engineers I believe you and choose not to say anything derogatory like "Folks really should nopt respond to technical discussion when they do not have the technical chops." You may want to re-read your posts going forward or your valued engineering opinion may not be taken as well. It sounds like a tow bracket would be best and I have no doubt you have researched and spoken to the engineers of them so Maximus 3 with Frame Tie in Kit must be the best way to go. I had no intentions of challenging your engineer opinion nor cause any grief. As I mentioned I am not an engineer so I rely on personal experiences and of course your engineering experience. Are there any other engineers opinions I should stay away from like Lod engineers. Jeep should really stop these aftermarket engineers from creating problems for the Jeep Brand

Look, Jeep has no control over other private companies making aftermarket products. There is a reason MOST bumper manufactures flat out tell you they do not endorse using thier bumpers to tow from even thow they may be more robust then the ones that do allow it. Take LOD they will sell your what they call a "Frame Tie IN Bracket" whereas that bracket does not even touch the frame direction or indirectly. Some of these companies have little to no moral standards. Many of these aftermarket companies are like LOD and Rockhard that are simply very small fabricators machine shops in rual America with limited engineering support. I do not expect any one to take my word as the gospel but simply open their eyes and logically evaluate this issue. Rv accidents are NO JOKE especiallyuwhen a 5000lb towed vehicle is part of the equasion. It is often like a plane crash with the RV dissinegtrating in to thousands of pieces creating a debris field and potetiona for serious injury to passengers and bystanders.

Having had several failed tow setups in the past few years,I dodged a few bullets on this front and as some one who shares the road with my own RV and vehicles haveing learned what I have and how this segment of the industry is UN-REGULTAED is deeply concerning. While I may come off abrasive I have found it is often needed to help other open thier eyes to the neglegence being propegated by some of these afternmaket companies. Maximus 3 Did not have a Frame Tie in system until I started pressuring them after my Maximus failure, I endeed up being the test vehicle for that new system. I learned that Roadmaster one of the biggest names in flat towing had major issues I discussed above and they have also made changes for the better by now tiing thier tow systems to the frame Directly. You do not have to look far to see what is right and what is clearly wrong.

For the record here is one email I recived from Jeep (FCA at the time) regarding this subject (I also had phone follow up to this that also confirmed this info in a little more detail). My local Dealer also contacted FCA and confirmed this

From: Jeep Customer Care <[email protected]>

Sent: Friday, XXXX XXXXX, 2021 11:33 AM

To:[email protected]

Subject: Recreational/Flat Towing Information

Gary,

Thank you for your reply.

VIN: 1C4JJXR62MW6XXXXX - 2021 JEEP WRANGLER UNLIMITED RUBICON 4XE

Recreational/Flat Towing Information

Unfortunately, we do not offer a Mopar Accessory for Tow Bar attachment; we also do not recommend for tow bar attachment to the front frame/bumper plate as it is not engineered for the demands of flat towing and could result in failure.

We are sorry we are unable to provide you with a more favorable reply

 

[JeepinJason33]

Look not trying to point out issues with everyone but here is some advice. If you read my above comments I said I had two tow systems that have failed one of those was the same Blu Ox base plate you have, I had broken welds but I casught it on inspection. I am not alone on that many have had the same. Fortunately the Blue Ox has good inspection visibility, while it does connect to the frame it still has welds between the frame and the tow bar.

I also have the NSA Ready Brute Elite, I have two Wranglers and in 2018 JL and 2021 4xe, when I set up my JL to tow originally I used the Ready Brute brake, 2nd time out coming down a long steep pass my brakes on my 1 year old Class A were failing, smoking like you would not believe, I was able to pull over and crawl under to see they were red hot still smoking out the stretche f hiway. Here is what I learned from that and the shop at the bottom of the pass who replaced my brakes (Note RV was 1 year old under 10K miles) the Ready Brute brakes is a 100% inertia system it takes reasonable braking forces (inertia) to activate that system, however the Ready Brake system requires too much inertia to activate the brakes in soft braking events (like slowing down hill) becasue of this you are not getting any TOAD braking which adds stress to the RV brakes. I called NSA who confirmed this, Living in the PNW we cross mountain passes on every outing multiple times and sometimes 2-4 passes. I had the brake shop verify the Readybrute set up (as I did prior to towing) it was set to NSA specs, but the Brake Tire shop said they have seen this issue numerous times with the Ready Brute tow bar setup. We used the ready brute Elite braking two more trips and each time significant smell from the brakes coming down passes. After that we abandoned the ready brake. We have since sold that Class A gasser for a Tiffin Diesel with engine braking we also have a 4XE at 6000lbs and now use Airforce One Brake system

I still use the ready brute tow bar but would never use the brake system again.

Look the Ready Brake is nothuing more than a serge brake whereas serge brakes have been used since the 1950's, you have to ask why this old technology is not used by any other tow bar manufacture, the answer it is outdated and limited. The other major downside is you have no manual override of the ready brake so in emergncy situation no way to activate braking manually.

Today you want proportionate braking a system that mirrors the RV braking (inertial braking while variable is not propoprtionate and does not kick in until significant inertia detected). That require hard wiring (Demco stay and play) or or air system for Diesel Pushers like Airforce one. Note even the wirless systems like RVI3 and Blue Ox Patriot use some inertia activation those still have manual overides. Any of these will be leaps and bounds safer and better for both RV and TOAD then the NSA system.

I will say had we not driven mountain roads with the Ready Brake I probably wold not have found this out, for the flats it is probably OK, but when you have a 20-35000lb RV and another 5-6K towing this is serious business as RV accidents are never pretty and often look like a plane crash. I receommend spend the $1500 for a good system and have the peace of mind your family is safer because of it. Also stay with the Blue Ox just keep an eye on the welds..

I completely agree that a brake system setup directly to the RV air brake is the best way to go. Because I tow several different vehicles behind our rig depending on what type of a vacation we are going on the installation of that was a bit more intrusive to the Toad than just plugging in a pedal operated system. I have the newer RVi3 Brake system that is inertia based. It has several settings to allow for the sensitivity. After coming down several passes including Mount Evans here in Colorado (highest paved road in North America) it has severed me well. What I really like about the new RVi3 is that it comes with a table that shows real time braking on the Toad. This way you know it is working and also can tell if it is coming on when it shouldn't. In addition, I use there battery tender that connects to the tablet and lets me know that the toad is charging and not depleting the batteries.

There are so many different opinions and variables with these. My Super C weighs in at 42,000 pounds without the tanks full so the 6,000 pound Wrangler does little to help stopping the RV, except in emergencies. Coming down the pass I use the engine brake and never have to touch the regular brakes so I have not experienced any over heating of the RV brake system. With that said, I see other RV owners screaming past me downhill riding their brakes all the time. It does not take much of a decline to get these rigs coasting at 80 MPH and I just shake my head as they go by.

 

[RubiJR]

Look, Jeep has no control over other private companies making aftermarket products. There is a reason MOST bumper manufactures flat out tell you they do not endorse using thier bumpers to tow from even thow they may be more robust then the ones that do allow it. Take LOD they will sell your what they call a "Frame Tie IN Bracket" whereas that bracket does not even touch the frame direction or indirectly. Some of these companies have little to no moral standards. Many of these aftermarket companies are like LOD and Rockhard that are simply very small fabricators machine shops in rual America with limited engineering support. I do not expect any one to take my word as the gospel but simply open their eyes and logically evaluate this issue. Rv accidents are NO JOKE especiallyuwhen a 5000lb towed vehicle is part of the equasion. It is often like a plane crash with the RV dissinegtrating in to thousands of pieces creating a debris field and potetiona for serious injury to passengers and bystanders.

Having had several failed tow setups in the past few years,I dodged a few bullets on this front and as some one who shares the road with my own RV and vehicles haveing learned what I have and how this segment of the industry is UN-REGULTAED is deeply concerning. While I may come off abrasive I have found it is often needed to help other open thier eyes to the neglegence being propegated by some of these afternmaket companies. Maximus 3 Did not have a Frame Tie in system until I started pressuring them after my Maximus failure, I endeed up being the test vehicle for that new system. I learned that Roadmaster one of the biggest names in flat towing had major issues I discussed above and they have also made changes for the better by now tiing thier tow systems to the frame Directly. You do not have to look far to see what is right and what is clearly wrong.

For the record here is one email I recived from Jeep (FCA at the time) regarding this subject (I also had phone follow up to this that also confirmed this info in a little more detail). My local Dealer also contacted FCA and confirmed this

From: Jeep Customer Care <[email protected]>

Sent: Friday, XXXX XXXXX, 2021 11:33 AM

To:[email protected]

Subject: Recreational/Flat Towing Information

Gary,

Thank you for your reply.

VIN: 1C4JJXR62MW6XXXXX - 2021 JEEP WRANGLER UNLIMITED RUBICON 4XE

Recreational/Flat Towing Information

Unfortunately, we do not offer a Mopar Accessory for Tow Bar attachment; we also do not recommend for tow bar attachment to the front frame/bumper plate as it is not engineered for the demands of flat towing and could result in failure.

We are sorry we are unable to provide you with a more favorable reply

I'm older and not confrontational so I'm more of the "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar".

You have had quite a few failures so your opinion on them is real world to me and valuable, so others do not have to go through the "luck" of not having the ultimate result which no one ever wants. You said even your choice of the Maximus 3 was not even safe until the bracket was reconfigured. In all of this I am thinking life is a gamble every day and this is another thing to try to lower the odds.

I am currently trying to find the information but my first stop at Maximus website does not really show it. But an install video really shows the mounting and additional bolts and drilling for strength. Below are the frame brackets for Maximus, your choice, and LoD which you have other thoughts about but another post on an RV board said they redesigned the bumper and they've added a large backing plate behind the tow points and tied it all together but I'm unsure of how much strength that gives to the Front tow points. Any thoughts on the engineering of adding the backing plate behind the tow points?

Maybe the Maximus will fit under the LoD bumper? I like steel for the off chance I get hit or hit something. I'm leaning toward the maximus but like to research and get real world opinions.

 

[Lakelife]

So with all this said, don't use the front tow hooks to pull out your stuck buddy or get pulled out yourself or your bumper will crumble?

 

[Rhinebeck01]

So with all this said, don't use the front tow hooks to pull out your stuck buddy or get pulled out yourself or your bumper will crumble?

Reality is there is risk involved... You may think not but there is..

 

[RubiJR]

Life is a risk in itself. Towing incorrectly, not double checking everything needed pre-tow, towing distance, towing terrain (hills, dirt roads, etc.), anything can malfunction without warning, and on and on. The only thing you can do is minimize what you can but in the end that doesn't matter as much as driving style, other drivers, and most of all Luck.

I have been flat towing for years from a welded on tow plate and see no problems with the welds which I check multiple times before a trip. I have friends who tow from the front bumper, tow plates, and trailers and with help from above none of us have had problems. In my early years I have had 2 failures with Trailer Balls 1 was an ATC on a trailer and the other was a buddy in the caravan going to the desert but both times we were able to get to the shoulder and no one was affected.

Beyond doing all you can and feel comfortable with - What can you do but live life

 

[gm920]

Life is a risk in itself. Towing incorrectly, not double checking everything needed pre-tow, towing distance, towing terrain (hills, dirt roads, etc.), anything can malfunction without warning, and on and on. The only thing you can do is minimize what you can but in the end that doesn't matter as much as driving style, other drivers, and most of all Luck.

I have been flat towing for years from a welded on tow plate and see no problems with the welds which I check multiple times before a trip. I have friends who tow from the front bumper, tow plates, and trailers and with help from above none of us have had problems. In my early years I have had 2 failures with Trailer Balls 1 was an ATC on a trailer and the other was a buddy in the caravan going to the desert but both times we were able to get to the shoulder and no one was affected.

Beyond doing all you can and feel comfortable with - What can you do but live life

Well said, reality is getting out of bed each day carries a certain amount of risk. Like your Avatar, I live not for from there.

 

[lightsout]

I'm older and not confrontational so I'm more of the "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar".

You have had quite a few failures so your opinion on them is real world to me and valuable, so others do not have to go through the "luck" of not having the ultimate result which no one ever wants. You said even your choice of the Maximus 3 was not even safe until the bracket was reconfigured. In all of this I am thinking life is a gamble every day and this is another thing to try to lower the odds.

I am currently trying to find the information but my first stop at Maximus website does not really show it. But an install video really shows the mounting and additional bolts and drilling for strength. Below are the frame brackets for Maximus, your choice, and LoD which you have other thoughts about but another post on an RV board said they redesigned the bumper and they've added a large backing plate behind the tow points and tied it all together but I'm unsure of how much strength that gives to the Front tow points. Any thoughts on the engineering of adding the backing plate behind the tow points?

Maybe the Maximus will fit under the LoD bumper? I like steel for the off chance I get hit or hit something. I'm leaning toward the maximus but like to research and get real world opinions.

That is not the frame tie in brackets...
The frame tie in brackets that allow you to through bolt the frame are basically 3/8"steel plates that fit between the frame horn and the frame filling that gap becasue if you through bolted through the frame horn without that it would crush the frame horn

So there is a 3/8 steel plate that fits in the frame horn gap on both side off the frame. SO the 3/4" tow loop gets bolted through the frame with the addition of 2 addition 3/8" brackets as well as the frame and horn itself. You will bend the frame of the Wrangler befor you would break the tow loop connection.

so basically this adds 3/4" of support brackets along with the 3/4" tow loop istelf. What is even more important there is not a single weld being relied on.

Here is the maximus Tie in Brackets Maximus Tow Loop Tie In bracktes

NOW the LOD bracket DOES NOT TOUCH NOR DOES IT BOLT TOP THE FRAME, it only connects to the frame horn which is where original maximus ties to that eneded up damaging so many frame horns.

 

[lightsout]

So with all this said, don't use the front tow hooks to pull out your stuck buddy or get pulled out yourself or your bumper will crumble?

First off you use factory tow hooks at your own risk Jeep provides no warranty for failure or damage. You bumper connection is part of the Wranglers CRUMPLE ZONE it is design to fail on impact, it is also significant limitation when pulling. This is why Winch Plates are connected to the frame.

Second the forces of pulling is far less then the forces of stopping. Case and point here is my maximus Tow Loop that was bend from a idel speed hard stop in a parking lot (dog ran in front while pulling out of parking space at rest stop) it bent that 3/4" steel plate instaltly. Imaging if that was a 30-40-50 mph hard stop.

This hard stop also broke both frame horns. Pulling is the easy part it is stopping that carries most of the risk. This is also why inertia braking systems have additional risk compared to air or wired braking. Inertia (Like NSA, RVI Patriot) all have delayed resonses

Sponsored