Auto or stick?

[Powelligator]

Is there any verified documentation by FCA/Stellantis on the 6-spd overheating issue that’s been mentioned above in this thread? I’d like to know definitively how the Jeep measures the clutch assembly temperature and at what temperature the computer starts reducing the power of the engine. Further, how does the computer reduce engine power? Retard timing? Restrict fuel and air delivery?

It appears that FCA has acknowledged the problem though actual documented cases of the clutch overheating, exploding, killing everyone around for miles and burning the Jeep to the ground appear to be rare. I see a heck of a lot more cases of the ESS system failing to restart engines and that appears to be a problem that all JL’s have, even the automatic transmission equipped ones. I also see a lot of automatic transmission failures, though that makes sense because something like 97% of all Jeeps are equipped with those and simple math tells us those numbers will be higher.

Reading reports on JL failures it appears that there are a lot of other issues that would cause me to rethink a new Wrangler purchase than the manual transmission. That said, beans vs. no beans in chili, 9mm vs. .45, etc. It’s a religious argument.

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[jjvincent]

VW actually markets the manual Golf R to the US with less torque than the DSG because they refuse to fix the design limitation of the thrust bearing and pressure plate. It’s absurd, and a sign that manuals are on their way out imo. I like the option, but technology (and cheap design) is forcing them out.

You should see when you race a VW or pretty much any newer manual car today. The gearbox on things like VW will explode one of the gears and punch a hole right through the case. If you know of anyone that races a Miata, they end up becoming experts on changing gearboxes. One weekend is all that they are good for. BMW used to have real good gearboxes. The old ZF 5 speed would go 10 years without any more than oil changes. Then the 6 speed would make it a season. The later 6 speed, two races before 4th gear would explode and blow a really big hole in the side of the case.

There's a reason why VAG will not sell a TCR car with a manual. Either DSG or sequential. One reason is the manual is junk and the other, nobody wants to race a manual any more as you can't money shift a DSG or sequential.

 

[kakwvu]

You should see when you race a VW or pretty much any newer manual car today. The gearbox on things like VW will explode one of the gears and punch a hole right through the case. If you know of anyone that races a Miata, they end up becoming experts on changing gearboxes. One weekend is all that they are good for. BMW used to have real good gearboxes. The old ZF 5 speed would go 10 years without any more than oil changes. Then the 6 speed would make it a season. The later 6 speed, two races before 4th gear would explode and blow a really big hole in the side of the case.

There's a reason why VAG will not sell a TCR car with a manual. Either DSG or sequential. One reason is the manual is junk and the other, nobody wants to race a manual any more as you can't money shift a DSG or sequential.

The current EA888 can (will) blow the bearing out and result in crank walk if you use an aftermarket clutch kit, so it makes sense. The days of manuals are numbered, unfortunately.

I also love OEM remote start in the winter, so auto isn’t all that tragic.

 

[Kreepin1]

Is there any verified documentation by FCA/Stellantis on the 6-spd overheating issue that’s been mentioned above in this thread? I’d like to know definitively how the Jeep measures the clutch assembly temperature and at what temperature the computer starts reducing the power of the engine. Further, how does the computer reduce engine power? Retard timing? Restrict fuel and air delivery?

It appears that FCA has acknowledged the problem though actual documented cases of the clutch overheating, exploding, killing everyone around for miles and burning the Jeep to the ground appear to be rare. I see a heck of a lot more cases of the ESS system failing to restart engines and that appears to be a problem that all JL’s have, even the automatic transmission equipped ones. I also see a lot of automatic transmission failures, though that makes sense because something like 97% of all Jeeps are equipped with those and simple math tells us those numbers will be higher.

Reading reports on JL failures it appears that there are a lot of other issues that would cause me to rethink a new Wrangler purchase than the manual transmission. That said, beans vs. no beans in chili, 9mm vs. .45, etc. It’s a religious argument.

As a rule car makers do not advertise cases that lead to a recall. Further, they are not going to divulge how their algorithm to predict clutch overheating works for legal and intellectual property reasons. As to how they limit power, again, they aren't saying but I'll point out this is a drive-by-wire system so it would be child's play to simply reduce the throttle opening. As to when they limit power, If you search in the "Issues, Repairs, Warranty, TSB, Recalls" forum and read through dozens of pages you'll find numerous accounts of owners reporting no change in power after the recall was performed. You'll also find a poster that actually had his pressure plate fail. As I recall, he was in the habit of sitting at lights with the transmission in first and the clutch depressed. If you read through the NHTSA documentation you will find it was a rare but potentially catastrophic failure.

That said, automatics are not without their own issues. I was a Guide at a Jeep Jamboree and a gentleman had the bad luck to flip on his side. We turned it over and pulled the spark plugs to clear oil from the engine but could not get is to crank. We found out that when the 8-speed is on it's side for any length of time, fluid can get trapped in an upper chamber and the Jeep must be towed to a dealer so they can pull the valve body, drain and refill the transmission. Until then the software prevents engine start. We don't actually know this is what the matter was, but it was not throwing any codes and would not crank over. To be sure this is a VERY rare event, but my point is everything has pros and cons, so get what you want. Beans vs. no beans, 9mm vs .45, etc. Me? I am loving the 6 speed in my 2-door Rubi...

 

[jessedacri]

Is there any verified documentation by FCA/Stellantis on the 6-spd overheating issue that’s been mentioned above in this thread? I’d like to know definitively how the Jeep measures the clutch assembly temperature and at what temperature the computer starts reducing the power of the engine. Further, how does the computer reduce engine power? Retard timing? Restrict fuel and air delivery?

It appears that FCA has acknowledged the problem though actual documented cases of the clutch overheating, exploding, killing everyone around for miles and burning the Jeep to the ground appear to be rare. I see a heck of a lot more cases of the ESS system failing to restart engines and that appears to be a problem that all JL’s have, even the automatic transmission equipped ones. I also see a lot of automatic transmission failures, though that makes sense because something like 97% of all Jeeps are equipped with those and simple math tells us those numbers will be higher.

Reading reports on JL failures it appears that there are a lot of other issues that would cause me to rethink a new Wrangler purchase than the manual transmission. That said, beans vs. no beans in chili, 9mm vs. .45, etc. It’s a religious argument.

I don’t believe you’re going to get detailed stuff from FCA on how they specifically addressed the problem in software - they cannot measure temperature in the exact location needed so it’s some sort of guess based on surrounding temps or certain driving behavior / patterns or both.

As for how they’d limit power, all that can be done trivially in software as the throttle is 100% electronically controlled. No messing with timing or fuel or anything, just a simple throttle curve adjustment. The driver presses the pedal to 75% throttle but the vehicle only allows 25% based on current conditions.

 

[ZBRA]

I have owned four JKs: 2007 4DR Rubicon Auto, 2013 2DR Rubicon 6-speed, 2013 4DR Sport Auto, 2016 4DR Sport Auto (90K monster build).

My favorite one, on and off road, was the 2-door Rubicon with a 6-speed. It was very lightly modded, nothing major. 35" tires, stock 4.10s, 2.5" OME lift, and a few cosmetic mods. That thing was a blast to drive. It had no problem going all through Hot Spring ORV park, keeping up with much higher priced builds. The 6-speed was easy to drive on the trails. Crawl gear was crazy low. Hill start worked perfect. Loved it. My favorite Jeep yet, and probably my least expensive "build".

Now I have a 2023 2-door Rubicon on order. It was never a question. I ordered a manual. I had no intention of buying another boring auto. They just sap away a large chunk of the driving experience which I enjoy. That's why I own a Jeep, for the driving experience.

I don't yet know if the JL manual is better than the JK manual, but I loved the JK manual. If the new is even better, then that's great.

 

[SoCal_JPr]

There are a lot of great points being made here. I think ultimately it comes down to what you prefer! The automatic is probably objectively better, and may prove to be longer lasting (just speculating) over time.

I had a JK with a manual, I never loved the clutch (pretty stiffly spung), but I enjoyed the shifter itself a lot. Now I've been driving a JLUR the manual for 3 years and I really love it. The clutch felt very light and vague at first, but we have an understanding now between us and get along fine. The critiques people have raised about the manual are mostly fair in my opinion. The most annoying thing to me is probably the rev-hang. Overall though I love having the 6-speed. It's great on-road, off-road, and works fine when towing my tent trailer.

For me it came down to the fact that I just enjoy having a manual. It makes cruising around town fun for me. I enjoy every shift, it just never gets old. Whether I'm on trail, camping, or driving for groceries it just feels... cool.

The JL also holds the brakes when on a hill so it's not stressful getting caught at a red-light on a steep grade. I drove a JL with the 2.0L and 8-speed for a few weeks, it was great too! It felt quick and shifted well, but I missed the engagement a lot. When I was a kid in the 80's watching CJ's drive past with no doors, those dudes tended to have a stick and it seemed so fun. Now that I'm all grown up I'm glad I get to enjoy the same feeling. I figure there isn't a ton of time left to enjoy it either as the manual is dying out, so for the time being I think I'll hang on and row my own until our eventual electric motor overlords make them completely irrelevant.

(For reference, I've owned an S2000, MR2, Prelude Si, RSX, JK, and YJ. All manuals, so clearly I'm biased. I enjoyed them all too, so I always may not be that discerning either! I'm sure you'll make the right choice and enjoy your decision either way).

 

[Grayone]

Just ordered 3.6 with 8 speed auto. Sting gray, 2 door, with 4.88 gears, ready for the 35's. Rubicon, frikken thing came in at 60k+ Stupid money, but can't take it with you! I remember my first CJ, purple, with AMC 304, with 4 speed. It had purple horny mufflers off the headers. Quick little bugger. I think that CJ cost me under 10k, but old man's memory may be betraying me.

 

[Old Dogger]

Just ordered 3.6 with 8 speed auto. Sting gray, 2 door, with 4.88 gears, ready for the 35's. Rubicon, frikken thing came in at 60k+ Stupid money, but can't take it with you! I remember my first CJ, purple, with AMC 304, with 4 speed. It had purple horny mufflers off the headers. Quick little bugger. I think that CJ cost me under 10k, but old man's memory may be betraying me.

Welcome to the Forum, from Cave Creek AZ!
BINGO..3.6, with the 8 speed auto = WINNER..

Yep, my CJ5 was purple, with black decal on hood saying Renegade. 304 V8, 4 speed manual, Detroit locker in the rear, and warn locking hubs up front. I had 35" trutrac tires on it. That Bad boy would go just about any place that I would point it.

 

[Chile1]

Daily driver, family vehicles, off road=Auto (one less thing to worry about)
Muscle car, sports car = Manual or it’s just boring.

i would add that off road vehicles = Manual or it's just boring...
Interesting enough, my X5M is my muscle car, sports car and it's automatic but with paddle shifters to give it the "manual feel".....

 

[BuyHold]

Just ordered 3.6 with 8 speed auto. Sting gray, 2 door, with 4.88 gears...

Congratulations.

Quick question though. How were you able to get the 4.88s with the Auto? The latest 2022 2DR order guides say that 4.88s are not available with either 2.0 w Auto or the 3.6 w Auto transmissions ("N/A W/22R; N/A W/25R"); only available with Manual. Did they open the option up for 2023 models with automatics or something? Asking for a friend.

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...615028/?hash=793f064d8f08e386de8ae8dc47bee227

 

[Grayone]

It's a 2023 if that matters. Ordered 3.6XE( or whatever the letters are) and had 4.88 as option. And then it ( or dealer) said I needed to opt for the optional wheels. Best understanding I have. Sorry.

 

[Omarius]

I don’t believe you’re going to get detailed stuff from FCA on how they specifically addressed the problem in software - they cannot measure temperature in the exact location needed so it’s some sort of guess based on surrounding temps or certain driving behavior / patterns or both.

As for how they’d limit power, all that can be done trivially in software as the throttle is 100% electronically controlled. No messing with timing or fuel or anything, just a simple throttle curve adjustment. The driver presses the pedal to 75% throttle but the vehicle only allows 25% based on current conditions.

If it’s a second order measurement (no actual temp sensor), Id imagine they consider wheel speed at n rpm as indicative of tranny and engine being perfectly coupled, and engine under load while wheel speed and rpms not matching as clutch being ridden. Then sprinkle some timer on how long you can ride the clutch in the course of an n hours and you have the basic algo.

 

[AlgUSF]

Just ordered 3.6 with 8 speed auto. Sting gray, 2 door, with 4.88 gears, ready for the 35's. Rubicon, frikken thing came in at 60k+ Stupid money, but can't take it with you! I remember my first CJ, purple, with AMC 304, with 4 speed. It had purple horny mufflers off the headers. Quick little bugger. I think that CJ cost me under 10k, but old man's memory may be betraying me.

Enjoy your Jeep when it comes in next year (that is for another thread). LOL!

At the end of the day I think it comes down to preference, but near the end of my powertrain warranty I'm going to change the transmission fluid and make sure the plug looks good. If the plug looks good and the clutch still bites great I'll keep it, otherwise I'll trade it in.

 

[Grayone]

Yeah, dealer is saying at least September but?? It will come in when it does. TRX took over 6 months so I am used to waiting..

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