Winter wheeling - chains, cables, nothing, a sled?

[Husky Man]

Seems cool, I'm looking for off road though. I wouldn't run studded tires off road. I assume the studs would break off and/or damage the tire.

Then you would assume wrong.

Off roading studs are less likely to have any effect, as to breaking the them off or damaging the tire, I have run studs for decades, This is the first time that I have ever heard anyone even mention breaking any studs, you should go look at some studs before they are installed, and after they are installed. Yep they will wear down, but you aren’t going to break them

Damaging the tire is a bit of stretch as well, if you’re any kind of driver. If you spin your tires until you reach a solid surface, and suddenly get traction, you can pull some out, this is most common on tires that are siped on the studded tread blocks.

It sounds as if you are visualizing studs protruding MUCH more from the tire than they actually do.



Doug

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[NWJeepr]

In some parts of the western states chains are required, not sure how that applies to Jeeps though.

As a broad generalization, chain carry requirements apply to vehicles 10,000gvw and over on mountain passes in the West between Nov 1 through April 1. DOT can require chains for "all vehicles" on mountain passes when the weather gets bad. Passenger vehicles typically have to chain up when the requirement is imposed unless they have 4WD/AWD with "traction tires" (generally an all-season or better).

 

[Husky Man]

As a broad generalization, chain carry requirements apply to vehicles 10,000gvw and over on mountain passes in the West between Nov 1 through April 1. DOT can require chains for "all vehicles" on mountain passes when the weather gets bad. Passenger vehicles typically have to chain up when the requirement is imposed unless they have 4WD/AWD with "traction tires" (generally an all-season or better).

Again Generally, this is true, but I have seen a few times that, chains were required on ALL VEHICLES, wether 4 wheel drive or not.

That they don’t seem to do that anymore I think is more of a policy change than anything, now they are more likely to just completely CLOSE the road than to post a chains required on all vehicles condition

Plus thanks to “Climate Change “
We never see those conditions anymore, and as we all know, Drivers are so much more SKILLED now, than in the past, that it is no longer necessary


Doug

 

[NWJeepr]

Yup...chains required

 

[BRuby]

Those chains in your link are absolutely Nasty Mean. For all but the most extreme conditions, I wouldn’t get the Ice Bar version like shown. Your Friend doing off road Rescue/Recovery work can justify them, because he is not just trying to keep his own vehicle moving through a bad situation, he’s trying to recover someone Else In a Bad Situation, there all the traction he can get is a bonus.

I have had, and used Ice bar chains off road, and they do dig deeper, and have more surface for traction and in limited situations are the absolute choice.

For the average person that is likely to use chains on a road, especially thin Ice, regular chains are a much better choice. In shallow Ice or snow, the Ice bar profile will just beat them up, and wear them out much faster than standard chains, without any advantage

The other key feature of the chains that you linked, is the Cam Lock tighteners, those are absolutely the best way to go, bar none, Those are the style most commonly used in tractor trailer service, I have literally “Hung” those on trucks more than a Thousand ( no exaggeration) times, in the last 36 years.

A main thing to watch using cam locks, is that you don’t install them upside down, the clamp link that attaches the cross chain Must be laying with the flat-side against the sidewall of the tire, if upside down, the curled side will be against the sidewall, and can chew up the sidewall, and the cams being upside down won’t function properly, on the loose first couple cams, you can turn them by hand, but as you tighten the cams, you will need to use a cam handle to properly tighten them, and the chain will obstruct the proper function of the cam/handle

There are some pretty clever ways of attaching and adjusting chains, but in my long experience, the cam locks are undeniably the best, easiest to use and most reliable


Doug

This sounds like a valid post and from someone who has actually used chains. Smart and knowledgable. As my hands-on conclusions are pretty much the same.

For those unfamiliar or guessing or speculating - chains are a must on very slippery wet black ice on an incline or decline. Snow and ice dedicated tires will not give you much grip. Studs will give you some grip but not a lot. Cables will give you more grip. Chains will generally give you enough grip. V-Bar will give you maximum ice and off-road grip.

We have regular chains cam locked shown in the pic below and they are fine when conditions warrant. But for extreme conditions get V-bar and put them on all 4 wheels. You can see in this video - regular chains grip perfectly fine on compacted snow turned into ice. We also experience this from time to time.

Those that never have needed to use chains - just have not been out enough in adverse conditions is all. Otherwise they would know that chains are mandatory. When they are mandatory.

As noted many times before - the Jeep in 2H with shitty half worn KO2s that many despise - is fine to get up and down lightly snow packed unplowed roads to ski mountains. While punching just into 4H gives way more traction. Most times this is enough. But in tough going - have used 4L and lockers and boards to get out of a foot of soft spring slush with a layer of ice under. Took us about 45 min of inching along with 4 wheels locked churning away trying to get grip - which was an enticingly close 2 feet away.

Chains are left to more adverse situations like shown in the vid. Nothing spectacular with wheels spinning wildly - just mundane slow crawling where the wimpy V6 that many think is shit - is in its power zone. Haha!

 

[Husky Man]

This sounds like a valid post and from someone who has actually used chains. Smart and knowledgable. As my hands-on conclusions are pretty much the same.

For those unfamiliar or guessing or speculating - chains are a must on very slippery wet black ice on an incline or decline. Snow and ice dedicated tires will not give you much grip. Studs will give you some grip but not a lot. Cables will give you more grip. Chains will generally give you enough grip. V-Bar will give you maximum ice and off-road grip.

We have regular chains cam locked shown in the pic below and they are fine when conditions warrant. But for extreme conditions get V-bar and put them on all 4 wheels. You can see in this video - regular chains grip perfectly fine on compacted snow turned into ice. We also experience this from time to time.

Those that never have needed to use chains - just have not been out enough in adverse conditions is all. Otherwise they would know that chains are mandatory. When they are mandatory.

As noted many times before - the Jeep in 2H with shitty half worn KO2s that many despise - is fine to get up and down lightly snow packed unplowed roads to ski mountains. While punching just into 4H gives way more traction. Most times this is enough. But in tough going - have used 4L and lockers and boards to get out of a foot of soft spring slush with a layer of ice under. Took us about 45 min of inching along with 4 wheels locked churning away trying to get grip - which was an enticingly close 2 feet away.

Chains are left to more adverse situations like shown in the vid. Nothing spectacular with wheels spinning wildly - just mundane slow crawling where the wimpy V6 that many think is shit - is in its power zone. Haha!

Yeah, I have a “bit” of experience with cam locks, generally putting 6 chains on at time.

Your video shows nicely, how they should be installed, with the flat side of the connecting clamp against the sidewall.

In your video, you have plenty of snow/ice depth to make use of Ice Bar chains, without tearing them up

I also noticed that you have some of the best chains, your outside end link are a sort of cam themselves, rather than just an open fixed hook, like on the inside chain rail, those will take up some slack connecting them rather than putting an inch or so of slack like the fixed hooks. I don’t know what the proper name is for those, I have always referred to them as “Long Arm Cams”. Whenever I have a choice I grab those for my own tractor. I have also picked them up from the side of the road, if I find them while chaining or unchaining, I have set those aside for myself, and just used some Sunday to cut down for my Son in Law’s pickup. I have the tool to open and close the side rail clamps, to remove/replace broken cross chains. My previous company was more than happy to buy me a bag of replacement cross chains, rather than buying full sets of new chains all the time.


Doug

 

[Husky Man]

Seems cool, I'm looking for off road though. I wouldn't run studded tires off road. I assume the studs would break off and/or damage the tire.

Arnie, to give you an idea of what studs look like, here are some pics to help you understand the design of them

This should give you several view aspects, with a common penny for scale

A box of a Thousand studs

A pneumatic stud gun with a feed hopper

The label describing them

As you can see the Tungsten “Tooth” doesn’t protrude very far from the body of the stud, and the shoulder of the stud which the tooth protrudes from is intended to be flush with the tread of the tire, and the stud body is designed to wear with the tire tread, with just the tungsten tooth protruding beyond the tread

These are a “#15 stud” which is the length recommended for the 35x12.50R/17 Maxxus Buckshot II’s I have for winter tires on my Jeep

There are different lengths for tires with different tread depths

I sure won’t claim that studs are the end all, be all of winter traction, on an Icy trail with a side slope, they could make a real difference, for most winter off road wheeling, they’re probably not going to make a noticeable difference. For someone trying to get to work or the grocery store, they can make a real difference.

Just like tires themselves, in some situations, some are the best choice, in other situations, a different tire will be a better choice, when studs are the best option, they really shine.


Doug

 

[Fatbob Frank]

I'm a firm believer in having a second set of winter tires on their own rims.
Preferably studded.
So far this winter I've been driving on the stock Falkens that came on it and they've performed much better that I'd hoped but a dedicated snow tire is nice to have...

 

[arnie_mueller]

I've decided to get a full set of chains just as insurance.

 

[Ratbert]

I've decided to get a full set of chains just as insurance.

Keep them somewhere handy. It'd suck to really need then when you're backed up against something that keeps you from being able to open the tailgate. Just like your winch / recovery gear.

 

[zouch]

actually, an Exemption in the Oregon laws allow the use of "mud and snow, all-weather radial, or traction tires" for 4WDs (provided other conditions are also met.
point being; 3PMS ("snowflake mountain" tires) aren't specifically required in all cases; M+S could be enough.

OR Chains and Traction Tires

In Oregon I've used chains on everything I've owned except my Jeep. Here, when chains are 'required', they exempt non-commercial vehicles under 10k lbs with winter rated (snowflake mountain) tires.

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