Officially done.

[Jeep&dogs]

Should have put it into a tree when you ran off the road.

Trust me the thought has crossed my mind several times.

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[No IFS]

Bye bye - Don’t let the CV boots hit on the way out the door. Another non-Jeep person we don’t have to listen to complain. ?

 

[rickinAZ]

Six new wranglers in only 15 years?! ?

Do you only lease? ?

I purchase. Just trying to do my part for the economy.

 

[Jeep&dogs]

As others have said, sorry you are having to deal with this, but also trying to learn from your experiences / efforts. I have a very similarly set up JLURD. Clayton 2.5, Accutune Fox DSC 2.5s, Reid knuckles, Dynatrac ball joints, cast steering box, Steer Smarts brace, Fox ATS. Don't have the 2.5 ton (yet) or PSC (probably not ever).

So, lots of folks get DW. I assume that the reason so many folks default to ball joints and track bar is that when most folks replace ball joints and track bar it fixes the problem. I just had the beginning of DW and the addition of the Reid knuckles, Dynatrac ball joints, and Steer Smarts brace (along with retorquing everything), and alignment seemed to do the trick. Two weeks of driving since I did it and the places that caused DW now dont and steering rock solid.

However, I concur that DW is probably a system thing vs a single cause (in most cases). My question, looking for your thoughts, is why does a new track bar and ball joints fix it on most jeeps and not fix it on others. The list of what you have done is amazing...and scary because no way in h@#& would I be able to even begin to duplicate what you have done...and you weren't able to fix it. If it is frame flex that is at the root of this, then all JLs should be experiencing it and the fixes that the majority of people say fixed it, shouldn't have. I think we can say all JLs are prone to DW...but not all get it. Why? You confirmed frame tolerances...yours is good. So, what would be different enough between same model and year vehicles to cause one to have an unrepairable problem and another to respond to a fairly simply fix?

Thoughts?

I also thing it’s a very small window of “acceptable” you are dealing with on these things. As in when you replace control arms you are actually changing the wheel base measurement to some degree. If you locate the axle 1/4 forward or reward you change the angle the track bar intercepts the frame at. So adjusting one of the rear 4 link bars on either of these 1 “flat” which Is 1 6th of a turn will shift several hundred pounds of weigh to one side of the vehicle or the other and can make the difference between the car going straight or violently turning to one side of the other and likely going into the wall or the other lane.

 

[ducatijosh]

I see you have a 2020, do you have the steel steering box? Or the old aluminum one? There was a recall for it.

 

[ducatijosh]

https://www.mopargenuineparts.com/sku/jlsteeringkit4dr.html

 

[Jeep&dogs]

I see you have a 2020, do you have the steel steering box? Or the old aluminum one? There was a recall for it.

On the 3rd cast iron one.

 

[ducatijosh]

Ah, worth a shot, sorry to hear about your problems.

 

[Mudduck]

A few of you should go back and read some old posts. I have probably built more high end Jeeps and drag cars than most of the people on here combined. I have literally cut Jl’s in half and rebuilt them from the ground up. Not to mention 4000+ HP twin turbo drag week cars from a pile of tube and carbon fiber. I didn’t just throw parts at the thing. I have been in this thing as far as measuring the exact over center adjustments on the gear box, most of the smart asses don’t even have a clue what an over center adjustment is let alone how to measure it. I have been on the phone with engineers form Stellentis for hours discussing this thing, they have sent me multiple gear boxes to try out. Anyone else have a direct contact with the steering and suspension engineers from Stellantis? I had three of the latest design gear boxes sitting in my shop to test before they were available. I picked which one I wanted and sent the others back.

And then to go on say "I don't come on here often because most people don't know what they're talking about"...... Wizz off dude.

I could initiate one hell of a diatribe about your hoity toity horse crap, but I'll say this only and move on while rolling my eyes and LOL-ing @ you....

It's funny you took the time to announce your departure after you and all of your infinite car building, carbon fiber shaping, hot rod building, drag car blah blah, Stellantis Engineering consultant, all things Automotive, iron chef of jack piss can't get your own Jeep right. BUT, thousands of others as novices, myself included, mod our own rig, tear it down and put it back together and have ZERO issues.

Good luck with the Bronco. I'm sure FORD R&D is waiting on your call.

 

[19 JLUR Bright Whit3]

Window licker that solved his own DW. LOL

 

[Themistocles]

I also thing it’s a very small window of “acceptable” you are dealing with on these things. As in when you replace control arms you are actually changing the wheel base measurement to some degree. If you locate the axle 1/4 forward or reward you change the angle the track bar intercepts the frame at. So adjusting one of the rear 4 link bars on either of these 1 “flat” which Is 1 6th of a turn will shift several hundred pounds of weigh to one side of the vehicle or the other and can make the difference between the car going straight or violently turning to one side of the other and likely going into the wall or the other lane.

Thank you for both replies. The detail / specifics are very helpful in allowing me to wrap my head around this. Let me see if I can summarize.

The flex in the frame rail is common to all JLs and creates a tendency toward DW. However, when all other components are working close enough to design spec the tendency does not result in DW. However, when any element or set of elements of the system begin to breakdown or when variances in original assembly has elements that are already on the edge of spec, that tendency leads to more frequent occurrence. The system seems to be most sensitive to problems with track bar and ball joints...meaning that for many / most cases correcting issues with them will reduce the tendency toward DW. However, in some vehicles the original assembly is so bad that DW is nearly inevitable and would require essentially a frame off rebuild to correct.

I would add that I assume this as a system tends more to complex than complicated...meaning that there are so many factors at play that for any given vehicle and situation, the exact cause is likely not just hard to determine, but essentially unknowable, and a specific input will not necessarily produce consistent outputs.

So, if I would look at a root cause analysis it would be the flex in the frame rail. Make the frame rail rock solid and the JL would be no more prone to DW than any other solid axle vehicle. Following that logic, the first attempt at a fix would be to try to stabilize the frame rail. If that was not possible (actually not sure why that would be beyond the realm of possible, given all the other crazy shit is done to Jeeps) then the process would be to trace the symptoms most immediately caused by the flexing frame. Track bar moves in a way it shouldn't...can that be fixed/mitigated? If not, what is the next path...? And on and on... Is the wrong way to look at it? What am I missing.

Again, thanks for the long / detailed response. I really appreciate it.

 

[Jeep&dogs]

Thank you for both replies. The detail / specifics are very helpful in allowing me to wrap my head around this. Let me see if I can summarize.

The flex in the frame rail is common to all JLs and creates a tendency toward DW. However, when all other components are working close enough to design spec the tendency does not result in DW. However, when any element or set of elements of the system begin to breakdown or when variances in original assembly has elements that are already on the edge of spec, that tendency leads to more frequent occurrence. In some vehicles the original assembly is so bad that DW is nearly inevitable and would require essentially a frame off rebuild to correct.

I would add that I assume this as a system tends more to complex than complicated...meaning that there are so many factors at play that for any given vehicle and situation, the exact cause is likely not just hard to determine, but essentially unknowable, and a specific input will not necessarily produce consistent outputs.

So, if I would look at a root cause analysis it would be the flex in the frame rail. Make the frame rail rock solid and the JL would be no more prone to DW than any other solid axle vehicle. Following that logic, the first attempt at a fix would be to try to stabilize the frame rail. If that was not possible (actually not sure why that would be beyond the realm of possible, given all the other crazy shit is done to Jeeps) then the process would be to trace the symptoms most immediately caused by the flexing frame. Track bar moves in a way it shouldn't...can that be fixed/mitigated? If not, what is the next path...? And on and on... Is the wrong way to look at it? What am I missing.

Again, thanks for the long / detailed response. I really appreciate

You are basically spot on, but stabilizing the frame might actually cause you to have to change the hardness of the track bar bushing. Or the stiffness of the stabilizer. Anything with a straight axle has the potential to do this, it 100% is a harmonic issue. Any given part will resonate at a certain frequency. Sometimes flex is good, sometimes it’s bad it literally depends on all the parts combined.

Back in the late 90’s Ford had a big issue with the 8.8 rear ends and howling when they went down the road. The solution was a 8lb rubber mounted weight on the bottom of the housing. Early Camaros 67-69 with convertible tops would get a vibration through the entire body going down the road you could feel…the solution was 4 oil filled canisters mounted in the fenders and quarters which absorbed the vibration. They were later referred to as “cocktail shakers”

Chrysler had an issue with the early front wheel drive mini vans that had a terrible vibration, the solution was a 5 lb rubber mounted weight on the passenger front frame rail. You need to either stop the harmonic or dampen it. Earlier you mentioned ball joints and track bar replacement stopping it. If the ball joints add say 1” lb of force to the steering system that wasn’t there before that could be the change to either absorb it or eliminate it.

 

[Jeep&dogs]

Window licker that solved his own DW. LOL

Well you know they say the first step in personal healing is admitting your issues, congratulations on admitting your fetish for window licking. Now you can take the next step in solving it by looking for a good counselor to help get you through it. Wish you all the best.

 

[Jeep&dogs]

Thank you for both replies. The detail / specifics are very helpful in allowing me to wrap my head around this. Let me see if I can summarize.

The flex in the frame rail is common to all JLs and creates a tendency toward DW. However, when all other components are working close enough to design spec the tendency does not result in DW. However, when any element or set of elements of the system begin to breakdown or when variances in original assembly has elements that are already on the edge of spec, that tendency leads to more frequent occurrence. The system seems to be most sensitive to problems with track bar and ball joints...meaning that for many / most cases correcting issues with them will reduce the tendency toward DW. However, in some vehicles the original assembly is so bad that DW is nearly inevitable and would require essentially a frame off rebuild to correct.

I would add that I assume this as a system tends more to complex than complicated...meaning that there are so many factors at play that for any given vehicle and situation, the exact cause is likely not just hard to determine, but essentially unknowable, and a specific input will not necessarily produce consistent outputs.

So, if I would look at a root cause analysis it would be the flex in the frame rail. Make the frame rail rock solid and the JL would be no more prone to DW than any other solid axle vehicle. Following that logic, the first attempt at a fix would be to try to stabilize the frame rail. If that was not possible (actually not sure why that would be beyond the realm of possible, given all the other crazy shit is done to Jeeps) then the process would be to trace the symptoms most immediately caused by the flexing frame. Track bar moves in a way it shouldn't...can that be fixed/mitigated? If not, what is the next path...? And on and on... Is the wrong way to look at it? What am I missing.

Again, thanks for the long / detailed response. I really appreciate it.

You seem a little more understanding of analysis than most. There are actually formulas the OE’s use in computer simulators that help them determine the “right combination” to avoid the harmonics. Here is a link that gets deeper into the science behind it. https://vehiclephysics.com/advanced/how-suspensions-work/#studying-the-oscillating-behavior this has more to do with spring rate but the same principle applies.

 

[19 JLUR Bright Whit3]

Well you know they say the first step in personal healing is admitting your issues, congratulations on admitting your fetish for window licking. Now you can take the next step in solving it by looking for a good counselor to help get you through it. Wish you all the best.

Sarcasm...

Only messing with what you called some of us as not knowing enough as you.
FYI. I did not stiffen the frame nor have I swapped out the original aluminum steering box. I watched videos and took advice from people here. I "found" the issue and corrected it. Maybe you were just overthinking it with your "big" ego brain.

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