Help deciphering this offer.

Dkretden

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How does one negotiate out of a doc fee? I’m looking at one similar in doc fee and dealers always say that’s non negotiable even after getting 7% below invoice.
Ask them what ALL fees that they will be adding are BEFORE you begin negotiations. I could care less if they want to charge me a $15,000 doc fee. I just negotiate harder on the price. The key is to know what it is PRIOR to negotiating.





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Dkretden

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OP.

save yourself some trouble. Figure out what you want to pay, out the door before tax, and negotiate to that point. If you want to pay cash, pay it. If you want to lease it, figure out, in advance, the lease terms that you want and negotiate to it. Negotiate the value of the vehicle AND any trade first, THEN negotiate the financing terms second.

as a good starter, 5% below invoice was “fair” a bit ago. These days, “fair” may be a bit higher that that.......IDK.
 

ToPar9

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EZMFE is 110% correct. To add a little extra to what he said. I spent nearly 8 hours at the dealership. I think they ended up selling me the Jeep because they wanted me gone. Here's a quick version of what I could easily turn into a one thousand word description.

Labor Day "Huge Blowout Sale" - Internet price showed XY,000. I went there with interest, but I explained I had the day off, and decided to swing by on my way home. Let them believe you are only a window shopper. I was already pre-approved through my bank, who I have been with for 25 years. I let him talk me into a test drive and complained about the feel, handling, lack of comfort, etc...

We returned, and I let him have the dealership give me an estimate on my '17 Cherokee (1500 less than what I wanted). I knew what I wanted for my trade prior to arrival.
I asked him to go ahead and draw up the numbers. I explained to him that I am a black and white numbers guy who deals with finances, etc. for a living. I have nothing to do with finances for a living, nor have I ever. They don't need to know that information.

The salesman brings out this sheet that makes zero sense. It would be like me giving you directions, but instead of giving you street names and directions in order 1,2,3,4,5, I gave you directions in an order of 4,2,5,3,1. Absolute zero rhyme or reason. I asked him to go back, and arrange the numbers in an order that makes sense, then we can talk. He comes back after 15 minutes or so. He starts with the "sale price". I stopped him right there and I told him he is must have the vehicle I test drove confused with a different vehicle. The price he shows me is 4500 more than XY,000. I told him I looked up the price while he was gone. He tells me that didn't include the upgrades. What upgrades? Window tint, $400.00, VIN etching, $500, miscellaneous upgrades $3600. I ask to review the sticker details on the vehicle. All of the "upgrades" were included in the Altitude package MSRP, with the exception of tint and VIN etching. I said, well, I apologize I wasted your time today, and I stood up.

After countless back and forth's, too many times of apologizing and standing up we were close to what I wanted to pay. He said, what will it take. I wrote down my number and said I won't pay a penny more. He tells me that it's not possible to come down that low, as they won't make any money off of the sale. Well, you asked what it will take and this is what it will take. I went well below the internet price of what I wanted to pay because time is money, and I was there way too long. Would I have accepted paying more? No sir, not after what transpired during the previous 4-5 hours. I then tell him that I am pre-approved, as long as we come to terms, the sale is a done deal.

He leaves for 20-25 minutes. When he returns, he says, they dropped the price down to what you want, congratulations on your new Wrangler. He hands me the sale sheet and asks me to sign and initial it. The price shows, XZ,750. I look at him and tell him I am not signing it. Why? That is not the price I want to pay. We don't have any further wiggle room. This is the best we can do. I ask him, you are going to lose a vehicle sell over 750.00? He says, I just don't see where we can make adjustments. (they've already agreed to give me 1500 more on the trade-in and dropped all but 1000 on the "upgrades") I tell him it's simple, give me $500 more on my trade-in, and deduct $250 from the "upgrades" that I've already paid for. We can't do that. I can't buy the Jeep.

I asked him to go ask whoever he needs to ask that I need 750 bucks. He comes back and says, I can't believe they agreed, but your price is XZ,000. He tells me the GM wants to speak with me. Ok, let's go talk. I explain to him my budget, what I want, and the price I am willing to pay. He says, but you won't notice $750.00 over 60 months. Sir, it's not the money, it's the principal. Ok, we will be with you in a few minutes. I walk out of his office, dejected, thinking I will be driving my Cherokee home. Dude comes out, says ok, he will sell you the Wrangler at your asking price.

Here is when it gets shady. The sales guy pulls out a sheet of paper and I the top I see, "Loan Application". I ask him, what is that for, I told you I am pre-approved. They agreed to your price, but you have to finance with us. No sir, I will finance with my bank. I have everything with this institution. Mortgage, insurance, etc. He looks around, leans in, and tells me to refinance with my bank tomorrow. We need the original loan to come through our finance company. Come on guy, the second I leave the parking lot, I am driving a used vehicle. My interest rate will balloon, and I am not going to jump through hoops.

Now the finance guy wants to talk to me. I explain the previous reasons and he asks me, what will it take to finance with Chrysler. 0.00% over 72 months. He says he can't do that but can give me 3.99%. That's higher than what I have. He says, even at 1.99 or 2.99, that is only a few extra dollars a month. I decline and am asked to have a seat outside of his office. After another 20-30 minutes, along with walking around the dealership again. The sales guy comes out and tells me that they will go ahead and honor my price. All said and done, I walked out paying 8k under the internet price, 12,5 under their initial price with "upgrades". (I got 4k more than what I owed. I had the Cherokee for a year and a half on a 72-month loan) Did I win? Maybe, but I left there feeling like I got my first win against a dealership.

Moral of this long-ass story ...
Don't let them see emotion, excitement, or desperation. I overheard a single mom with her 6 or 7-year-old being drug across the coals in a cubicle next to mine.
Act semi-interested
Play it cool
Get pre-approved, don't tell them your % rate, and tell them to offer their best rate.
Get everything in writing!!!

Ultimately, it's your money, your decision. Dealerships are a dime a dozen. If you live in or near a big city, you can be at 7-8 Jeep dealerships within an hour or 2.

My .02 cents, take it for what it's worth.
 

ToPar9

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One last thought ...
Research, research, research
Don't worry about trying to figure out % based on Friends and Family, or the Southeast 2,500 cash rebate, or whatever BS promotion they are running. It's all fluff to draw you into the dealership. They know once they get you interested, that urge to upgrade vehicles is there. They will do whatever it takes to take your money.
If the vehicle sticker is 40,000 but based on what you have researched that price is more than what you want to pay, figure out a number you are comfortable with. Stick to your guns. Don't let the salesman dictate your future payments. They can ALWAYS go lower than their absolute bottom dollar.
I've never met an honest salesman, regardless of what they are selling.
 

brican

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Wow, there is some great advice in this forum. I went through this when I bought mine. I actually flew to CA (from AZ) to buy so I felt I was at a disadvantage potentially wasting a day and $500 for air fare. After negotiating for about an hour and not getting anywhere I stood up and said unless you meet my terms, I'm calling Uber and going to the airport. Then and only then did they realize I was willing to eat the airfare and go home empty handed-they started to negotiate toward my number. Just like these guys (above) say, you hold all the cards and without you they have no sale. I even had the sales guy tell me they sell over 1,000 cars a month and don't need to negotiate. Well they might but they will still negotiate.
 
OP

mike62

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EZMFE is 110% correct. To add a little extra to what he said. I spent nearly 8 hours at the dealership. I think they ended up selling me the Jeep because they wanted me gone. Here's a quick version of what I could easily turn into a one thousand word description.

Labor Day "Huge Blowout Sale" - Internet price showed XY,000. I went there with interest, but I explained I had the day off, and decided to swing by on my way home. Let them believe you are only a window shopper. I was already pre-approved through my bank, who I have been with for 25 years. I let him talk me into a test drive and complained about the feel, handling, lack of comfort, etc...

We returned, and I let him have the dealership give me an estimate on my '17 Cherokee (1500 less than what I wanted). I knew what I wanted for my trade prior to arrival.
I asked him to go ahead and draw up the numbers. I explained to him that I am a black and white numbers guy who deals with finances, etc. for a living. I have nothing to do with finances for a living, nor have I ever. They don't need to know that information.

The salesman brings out this sheet that makes zero sense. It would be like me giving you directions, but instead of giving you street names and directions in order 1,2,3,4,5, I gave you directions in an order of 4,2,5,3,1. Absolute zero rhyme or reason. I asked him to go back, and arrange the numbers in an order that makes sense, then we can talk. He comes back after 15 minutes or so. He starts with the "sale price". I stopped him right there and I told him he is must have the vehicle I test drove confused with a different vehicle. The price he shows me is 4500 more than XY,000. I told him I looked up the price while he was gone. He tells me that didn't include the upgrades. What upgrades? Window tint, $400.00, VIN etching, $500, miscellaneous upgrades $3600. I ask to review the sticker details on the vehicle. All of the "upgrades" were included in the Altitude package MSRP, with the exception of tint and VIN etching. I said, well, I apologize I wasted your time today, and I stood up.

After countless back and forth's, too many times of apologizing and standing up we were close to what I wanted to pay. He said, what will it take. I wrote down my number and said I won't pay a penny more. He tells me that it's not possible to come down that low, as they won't make any money off of the sale. Well, you asked what it will take and this is what it will take. I went well below the internet price of what I wanted to pay because time is money, and I was there way too long. Would I have accepted paying more? No sir, not after what transpired during the previous 4-5 hours. I then tell him that I am pre-approved, as long as we come to terms, the sale is a done deal.

He leaves for 20-25 minutes. When he returns, he says, they dropped the price down to what you want, congratulations on your new Wrangler. He hands me the sale sheet and asks me to sign and initial it. The price shows, XZ,750. I look at him and tell him I am not signing it. Why? That is not the price I want to pay. We don't have any further wiggle room. This is the best we can do. I ask him, you are going to lose a vehicle sell over 750.00? He says, I just don't see where we can make adjustments. (they've already agreed to give me 1500 more on the trade-in and dropped all but 1000 on the "upgrades") I tell him it's simple, give me $500 more on my trade-in, and deduct $250 from the "upgrades" that I've already paid for. We can't do that. I can't buy the Jeep.

I asked him to go ask whoever he needs to ask that I need 750 bucks. He comes back and says, I can't believe they agreed, but your price is XZ,000. He tells me the GM wants to speak with me. Ok, let's go talk. I explain to him my budget, what I want, and the price I am willing to pay. He says, but you won't notice $750.00 over 60 months. Sir, it's not the money, it's the principal. Ok, we will be with you in a few minutes. I walk out of his office, dejected, thinking I will be driving my Cherokee home. Dude comes out, says ok, he will sell you the Wrangler at your asking price.

Here is when it gets shady. The sales guy pulls out a sheet of paper and I the top I see, "Loan Application". I ask him, what is that for, I told you I am pre-approved. They agreed to your price, but you have to finance with us. No sir, I will finance with my bank. I have everything with this institution. Mortgage, insurance, etc. He looks around, leans in, and tells me to refinance with my bank tomorrow. We need the original loan to come through our finance company. Come on guy, the second I leave the parking lot, I am driving a used vehicle. My interest rate will balloon, and I am not going to jump through hoops.

Now the finance guy wants to talk to me. I explain the previous reasons and he asks me, what will it take to finance with Chrysler. 0.00% over 72 months. He says he can't do that but can give me 3.99%. That's higher than what I have. He says, even at 1.99 or 2.99, that is only a few extra dollars a month. I decline and am asked to have a seat outside of his office. After another 20-30 minutes, along with walking around the dealership again. The sales guy comes out and tells me that they will go ahead and honor my price. All said and done, I walked out paying 8k under the internet price, 12,5 under their initial price with "upgrades". (I got 4k more than what I owed. I had the Cherokee for a year and a half on a 72-month loan) Did I win? Maybe, but I left there feeling like I got my first win against a dealership.

Moral of this long-ass story ...
Don't let them see emotion, excitement, or desperation. I overheard a single mom with her 6 or 7-year-old being drug across the coals in a cubicle next to mine.
Act semi-interested
Play it cool
Get pre-approved, don't tell them your % rate, and tell them to offer their best rate.
Get everything in writing!!!

Ultimately, it's your money, your decision. Dealerships are a dime a dozen. If you live in or near a big city, you can be at 7-8 Jeep dealerships within an hour or 2.

My .02 cents, take it for what it's worth.
Excellent advice and story thank you . It's a shame that what should be a fun experience is so dreadful because dealers try and treat everyone as an idiot. I have made what I thought were good deals but always remember if they sold it I didn't get the best deal or they wouldn't have let me purchase. However, you definitely can save a lot by being informed and ready to walk if needed.

I have been told like you, "its only a few dollars a month". I usually say I agree but it's my money paying it. If the dealer says that I'll agree it's not that much so they can absorb it. It's just a few dollars right? Lol.
 

LawrenceR

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I said I would entertain an offer starting at invoice.
- This would be taken as if you would buy at invoice. Why would the salesman go lower?

I then planned on trying to get somewhere around 6-8% below invoice.
- Trying? You start at that and don't entertain any offers above it. You have to know what you want to pay like you know the color green. You have to show confidence and the resolve that you are going to pay 6%, nothing more. If you show weakness or show the slightest "tell" that you may be willing to pay more... the salesman will smell that weakness and pray on it.

When making purchases at this level you walk in knowing what you are going to pay based on the research (auto/fincancial) you have done. You really shouldn't tell them you will entertain an offer at all. You hold all the cards in this case and should be able to pull off a great deal if you make the right plan and stick to your guns.

One of the problems is your emotions... you want this for your daughter but need to separate the emotional side of things so you can get the deal done right. This is hardball and if not careful you and her could get hit pretty hard with a high interest rate and a higher final price than what the dealer is willing to sell it for. This is actually the key... what the dealer is willing to sell it for.. and that is what your goal is to find.. the bottom end of what they will sell it for... That is why you feel them out and start below what you know they will sell it for. That way when you are dancing with the salesman... you can act surprised when they don't take it... all while laughing inside... Once you find the bottom... you truly start your negotiations. You see when you are dancing with the devil... it's a bit more fun when you know the dance moves.

The average going rate for those that do dance is 5% under invoice and so my first offer would be 6%-7% under invoice. For you this might be different and based on research in your area you may find 8% is where you will start.

First you need to know what invoice is and if the numbers that they are showing you are truly invoice. If you are not sure than take 5% as starting point and that will get you close (it's most likely closer to 6%). So 5% off MSRP for invoice and then another 6% off of that. Now to be honest, at this point you are most likely more around 5% under invoice but you would just keep that to yourself knowing those numbers are exactly where you want them to be. As far as they are concerned you agreed to 6% under invoice and so see if the numbers are accurate. If they are then make the deal. Also, that little 1% is a win on their side... you gave them that tiny win... let them have it... but know you gave it to them. I am not sure if you can follow that but those starting numbers are what will decide.

Cross off all of those extra fees on that paper you have in the image. Take a pen an cross off all the BS charges. Tell them you are not paying any extra fees. This will make them explain what they are... so you can watch them BSing you about charges. The first thing you want to do is tell them to take it off the price of the auto. If they added a $600 doc fee.. tell them they can keep it but it must come off the price of the car. You don't really care how all those numbers add up... you just know the final price should be 6% under invoice... and you have that number written down. If they give you a sob story of how they will not be able to keep the lights on unless they swindle you out of that doc fee etc.. give them a little bit. Tell them a doc fee of $200 is more reasonable and so you are willing to give them that but the other 400 must come off the price. See, you have to be a stickler with these charges and nickle and dime them to death or they will think they can just add them. If you push back on them and make sure they are aware of how much bs they are blowing up your rear.. you will find you just saved yourself a few hundred dollars. Make them itemize every last charge so you know exactly what you are paying and what for. Also, go in knowing what the doc fee, tax rate, license plate fee, are in your area.

Another important item is knowing what you qualify for as far as interest rates. Know your scores and don't allow them to tell you otherwise. You go to myfico.com and purchase all three reports and you will see multiple scores (mortgage, auto, etc) including the one they will use. Also, secure financing before the deal so you know exactly what interest rates they need to beat for you to allow them to select their favorite "high kickback rate" financial institution. If you "allow" them to finance it for you, they must beat the interest rate that you have already secured.

As far as the financial institution they may go through... Most are high volume and have little to no customer service. There are horror stories out there of people receiving late fees, excessive charges, and not being able to get their title when paid off. So sometimes paying that .25 - .50% higher interest rate to a local bank/CU is better than having to deal with a company that could truly care less about the customers they pretend to service.

One item you will want to remember is you are holding all of the cards. Without you they do not sell the automobile so that is something you can build confidence on. The sales/finance staff depend on people like you to purchase vehicles and if they don't sell vehicles at some point.. they don't have jobs. The key is knowing these people are sharks and keeping that in the back of your mind at all times is key. They are not your friend and will take as much money as you are willing to give them. They will settle for much less but will ask for and take as much as they can persuade you to give. You must play the game back if you want to win. You must pretend to be their friend.. laughing.. joking.. just keep your eye on the final amount.

Oh, and about that dance. You see these guys practice hours and hours on how to sell cars to people. One of the basics of that "dance" is to negotiate. So a salesman will not feel as if they are truly doing their job correctly if they are not able to negotiate a little bit. That is why you must start low when starting that process. You are essentially dancing with this dude and can do it with ease or get all jammed up when trying to move some numbers. They may pull out all kinds of numbers and tell you how much you are saving here or there.... Make sure you have written down the final numbers and know exactly what you plan on paying. Take a look at that paper to remind yourself of where you are and what you are doing. If you are way off for some reason and they are not willing to budge...just walk. Tell them you will think about it and walk (shaking your head in disappointment). Tell them if they can hit the numbers you have provided... you will stick around but if they cannot then you will need to look elsewhere. Tell them you have not looked at any other dealers and at this point you are not sure if you might be able to get a better deal with one of them. You can make it seem as if you just thought about that and are now... thinking that might be a better opportunity.

Many dealers will be willing to deal with you as long as you play the game. To be honest they don't always come across people who truly dance with them. It is more them dancing with themselves and the inflate the price of the vehicle, pump up the interest rate, and steal the trade... It's a cut throat game for sure but with the right moves... one can come out with slight scratches instead of deep wounds.

I know these long post are not for everyone and my apologies to those peeps but buying an automobile is a time where you can be taken advantage of very easily or at the very least... pay too much for a vehicle.


THANK YOU ! I realize this took a lot of your time, what you really did for me was to confirm what my feelings were about pricing.
 

Sohm Wan

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@Notorious

too ballsy for me. cant have too much freedom. cant have too many restrictions. perfect balance, like everything should be.
 

Cuyose

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I am in contact with a dealer a state away for a 2020 Rubicon Unlimited, MSRP $57,535. I'm offering 50K about 12% below MSRP and looking for the 3 yr 0%. Also trading in a very low mileage 2014 CX-5 Grand Touring. Looking to get 15K for that, for totally out the door of 35K + tax, title, license. I may go down to 14-14.5K on the trade in to let them feel they can deal. Its gotta be tough for dealers to move used cars during this pandemic too, but im hoping the market for used cars grows as new is a big risk to take in this economy.

They didn't balk on the phone right away, and gathered info on the trade a bit after business hours, and will reach out today on what they are prepared to do. I am not in a huge rush, and the dealer being 200 miles away also makes it easy to play hardball.

Ill post how the rest of this goes.
 

ToPar9

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Ill post how the rest of this goes.
You may have everyone on the boards beat if that deal goes through. A solid plan of attack.
I hope it works out for you!
 

Cuyose

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So we are at 51.5 for the JL, 14,750 for my trade, and they will deliver from 225 miles away, this saves me a entire long day and 500 miles round trip. so 11.7% off msrp and delivery to my place. I will be happy if that works out.
 

Cuyose

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So final proposal worked out as 50498.00 discounted from MSRP of 57535.00, getting 14K for the trade in, $150.00 doc fee and a $32 mandatory transfer fee as Oregon sale, WA resident.

So 13% off of MSRP, They got some extra out of the trade in, but that's all paid off for some time now, and I wouldn't want to try and sell it in this market anyhow.
 

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