eTorque Delete Option?

[AlgUSF]

What is up with this trend of illegally removing, modifying and deleting functioning components instead of embracing them and learning about how they work and keeping them functioning?

How about purchase a service manual and maintain it instead. Or is a service manual so complicated that it's easier to hack away and butcher instead of properly maintain and repair?

I certainly hope you're saying this in jest. Obviously on the Internet you have no idea who you're talking to.

I have a 2002 Civic that I've turned a wrench on myself for the last 19+ years. Rebuilt the front and rear suspension, did timing belts, water pumps, crankshaft position sensor, front seal, A/C work various hoses and condenser (pulling a vacuum and charging myself). 270K on original clutch, drives great.

Odyssey timing belts, CV joints.... Front bearings on my Tundra. The list goes on..... The ONLY thing I don't do is mount tires.

I am assuming you're talking about a service manual like this, which I bought new from HELM back in 2004:

Maybe line up the camshafts of an Odyssey.

"Illegal" depends on where you live. The laws here in the Sunshine State are way different than in California. Here in Florida there is a lot of latitude given to vehicle owners to improve their vehicles. All 4 of my vehicles have their original emissions systems in tact.

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[OllieChristopher]

I certainly hope you're saying this in jest. Obviously on the Internet you have no idea who you're talking to.

It's kind of in jest for sure. OTOH, I'm a firm believer in having and using a service manual for everything I own. Unfortunately I'm at an age that I let some of the harder stuff get done by facility's and mechanics I trust.

Not to get political but I live in a state where any kind of tampering with emission systems can get you in trouble.

 

[AlgUSF]

It's kind of in jest for sure. OTOH, I'm a firm believer in having and using a service manual for everything I own. Unfortunately I'm at an age that I let some of the harder stuff get done by facility's and mechanics I trust.

Not to get political but I live in a state where any kind of tampering with emission systems can get you in trouble.

Without getting political, I live in a state where "anything goes". However my cats, EGR systems, and AIP on the Tundra are all in original perfect working order (maybe my cats are a little degraded solely due to age).

There are some good tunes out there that are legal under Federal Law. Once FCA/Stellantis is off of the hook for my warranty, I'm going to investigate. That was the point of my initial post.

Edit: Without starting another reply. As I understand it CAFE relies on the Interstate Commerce Clause of the US Constitution. Once the vehicle lands in a state it is subject to State Law. Many of the modifications many consider "excessive" are due to manufacturers meeting these standards. Once the vehicle is delivered, the vehicle is covered under State Law. The tune you buy has to meet the requirements of the "Clean Air Act" which takes the vehicle as a single unit as opposed to the entire fleet of a particular automaker.

 

[J.Ralston]

What is up with this trend of illegally removing, modifying and deleting functioning components instead of embracing them and learning about how they work and keeping them functioning?

How about purchase a service manual and maintain it instead. Or is a service manual so complicated that it's easier to hack away and butcher instead of properly maintain and repair?

Illegal? What’s illegal about removing a battery from a vehicle assuming that the components from a pre 2018 3.6 liter Pentastar V-6 out of a JK Wrangler match up with a 2018 and newer 3.6 liter Pentastar eTorque V-6 out of a JL Wrangler match up?

The maintaining part is something that I don’t have an issue with, if you go back and re-read my original post. It’s the fact that under the old way you had a $200.00 part to replace if it broke or went out on your Jeep Wrangler. And it could be fixed relatively quite easily if you had it go down or broke out on a trail somewhere. The new system is $850.00 for the stop/start generator. The 48 volt battery alone is another $1,500.00 just for it. Then you have its casing, coolant lines, 2 extra coolant reservoirs dedicated to just the battery, and extra water pump, that all cost who knows how much? You also have a ton of added weight from everything added onto the Wrangler, everything is extremely complicated to fix, in addition to there now being for things that can snag on something and break out on a trail, your inability to fix those components while out off-roading somewhere on a trail and Jeep adding a worthless item of technology that does way more harm than good that most people who bought their Jeep for the primary purpose of off-roading not only didn’t want or need but Jeep also did a very poor job putting out the detailed information of the eTorque system to both dealerships and consumers. Had I known in advance about the details of the eTorque system I would have then chosen a different engine option. Had Jeep also announced the details of the 392 and Extreme Recon package before the 2021’s were already being made, then that is what I would have ordered when I initially placed my order. I hate the engine stop/start function as well and always turn it off. The eTorque was designed by some yuppie, pencil necked geek in a suit that is working in a corporate office and who thinks that he and/or she is in touch with what off readers and overlanders want in an off road vehicle. Actually, no they don’t! They saw overly complicated, expensive components and repairs and their eyes saw nothing but dollar signs and more profit for their brand and so they went with the design not giving a rats behind about what off readers actually do want!

 

[Wbino]

Just sell the Jeep, buy a Tesla then complain how complicated that is.

 

[oceanblue2019]

It might be urban myth but I've heard of Jeep guys in California who have converted to the PSC mechanical steering pump getting hassled during emissions inspections as the electric steering pump system is a device related to lowering emissions and converting back to the old mechanical pump is illegal.

The argument is anything that increases fuel consumption over how the vehicle was built can be considered an emissions violation.

And if we allow this argument then wheel size, front FAD, heavy bumpers -- all could be considered emission impacting.

To live in a state that regulates to that level seems like something that would happen in an eastern block country....

 

[OllieChristopher]

Illegal? What’s illegal about removing a battery from a vehicle assuming that the components from a pre 2018 3.6 liter Pentastar V-6 out of a JK Wrangler match up with a 2018 and newer 3.6 liter Pentastar eTorque V-6 out of a JL Wrangler match up?

Jason, My question to you is why did you purchase the E-Torque option when there were other engine options?

Reason it is illegal to remove that battery and modify is because it is part of the emissions system. I say go for it if you want. I personally would not. It makes no sense to me.

It might be urban myth but I've heard of Jeep guys in California who have converted to the PSC mechanical steering pump getting hassled during emissions inspections as the electric steering pump system is a device related to lowering emissions and converting back to the old mechanical pump is illegal.

The argument is anything that increases fuel consumption over how the vehicle was built can be considered an emissions violation.

That would not be true. As long as you are not tampering with the emissions equipment and component meets DOT, AQMD and EPA regulation requirements it's legal to modify your vehicle.

 

[somedude922]

OP, bro, you need a snickers.....

 

[garyji]

Didn't read 3 pages, but the eTorque does not have the "small" (AUX) battery. Mine has been flawless. Not sure what there is to dislike about it. If you have a 21, I'm pretty sure you haven't had to repair anything yet so we really don't know about future costs/complications.
Technology like this is not going anywhere for any brand, make or model. If anything, things will get more technical, not less. Welcome to the 21st century.

G.

 

[The Last Cowboy]

There is an easy and cost effective way to do this. Trade it in. Resale/trade values are crazy right now. The next owner won't care. Order one without the eTorque. "Conversion" is now complete. You didn't even have to get your hands dirty.

The hard way is damn near un-doable. Remove all eTorqure related hardware. Replace with an alternator and a starter. Replace all of the belt pulleys that don't match to non eTorque pulleys. Remove all related wiring harnesses and PCM. Replace with the proper wiring harnesses and PCM. Install the proper batteries for the non eTorque. I'm sure there are a lot of thing I didn't take into account

 

[BrierPatch]

I agree, I'm looking forward to a large amount of 2018/2019 to roll off of their powertrain warranties. I bet we get a lot of creative solutions to the nanny state overly engineered engines. I'm not a big fan of how lean the 3.6 runs at idle and the ignition timing. I always get a knock when I'm going 15mph in 2nd through my neighborhood and give it a little gas (makes me cringe).

Are you 6MT or 8AT? At near idle, giving a healthy bit of gas cause is it to knock a bit with an MT and the engine solidly connected to the transmission. The fluid coupling of the AT probably negates this because the engine isn't pushing against a solid shaft.

I have the 3.6 with 8spd. I believe it does the same knocking as well. Usually around 1500 to 1800 rpm, going slow and put load on the engine and it will sound like a desiel. I also believe it only does this when the engine is at full temp.

Oh, but the way so far I like the e-torque, but it does seem like alot more complicated of a system than I imagined. The battery is the most likely component that will need replaced. We know batteries have a life span. The rest of the system is pretty much proven technology at this point. I'm not really afraid of water pumps and cooling lines. The starter generator isn't a new concept. I have my grandfather's 1960's international cub cadet and it uses a belt driven starter generator and it still works to this day.

 

[J.Ralston]

It might be urban myth but I've heard of Jeep guys in California who have converted to the PSC mechanical steering pump getting hassled during emissions inspections as the electric steering pump system is a device related to lowering emissions and converting back to the old mechanical pump is illegal.

The argument is anything that increases fuel consumption over how the vehicle was built can be considered an emissions violation.

And if we allow this argument then wheel size, front FAD, heavy bumpers -- all could be considered emission impacting.

To live in a state that regulates to that level seems like something that would happen in an eastern block country....

I was born and raised in San Diego and moved out of State in 2003, for a very good reason. I will always love and miss the California that I grew up in but will never moved back to that communist State ever again!

 

[markw365]

OBD, question, what trans do you have. I ordered my 2021 Willys last year in October, when you chose the 3.6 with the 8 speed auto, you could NOT get it without the E-Torque period. Do you have E-Torque or the regular ess system? The E-Torque has the 48 volt battery behind the passenger seat, a lot smoother than the ess system. Did something change? There’s a lot of confusion with these 2 systems and generic engine start stop systems. Two totally different animals.

Battery is underneath opposite side of the gas tank. It has ESS and uses the motor generator to start/stop the engine. Very smooth, very quick to start. It also does not have the little aux battery.

 

[Wbino]

OP is giving major Chicken Little vibes.
Or Debbie Downer take your pick.

 

[J.Ralston]

Jason, My question to you is why did you purchase the E-Torque option when there were other engine options?

I ordered my Jeep on 11-30-2020 and did quite a bit of research on it before buying it. At the time of my doing research and looking into everything the only engine options available for JL Unlimited Rubicon were the turbo charged 2.0 liter I-4, the turbo charged 3.0 liter V-6 diesel and the 3.6 liter V-6. with the 3.6 liter V-6, everything that I saw on them only said that they had ESS or electronic stop/start. I then saw 1 video saying you could get a 3.6 liter V-6 with eTorque but I couldn’t find a single thing in regards to what eTorque actually was other than it gave your Jeep slightly more torque for the first 1/2 wheel rotation but that was it. With the ESS version and with the eTorque version I did read that if you came to a complete stop that the engine would shut off but the moment that you started taking your foot off of the brake your engine would start back up and you could accelerate from there. And the information that I found said that the electronic stop/start could always be shut off to which I interpreted as you not having to turn it off after every single time that you started your Jeep up again. But I figured that since I could turn it off, I could live with ESS as a feature on my JLUR.

I also then read that the turbo charged 2.0 liter I-4 engine had ESS in it as well but I don’t recall ever hearing or seeing anything related to the turbo charged 3.0 liter V-6 diesel having that option in it or not?

As I began weighing my engine options I looked at a lot of stuff. I really liked the turbo charged 3.0 liter V-6 diesel option and came very close to choosing it instead. The dislikes that I had concerning it was that you had to put DEF in it which I also hate. My Dad was a long distance truck driver from the time that he graduated high school until he had to medically retire in 1990, when I was in high school. So I grew up being around diesels, I loved them, loved the torque produced from them and understood the idiocy behind the very uneducated bureaucrats that made it to where diesel engines had to use DEF in there exhaust system. I also didn’t like the fact that you got a smaller fuel tank with the diesel engine option and you could not get 4.10’s in the diesel engines, only the 3.73’s.

I then looked at the new turbo charged 2.0 liter I-4 engine but wasn’t sure how that engine would do if I put bigger tires and all sorts of aftermarket things on my Jeep, which I was planning on doing. I also knew that if you compared a smaller, turbo charged engine to a naturally aspirated larger engine that 9 times out of 10 the larger, naturally aspirated engine would be more reliable and would last a lot longer.

Because of those reasons and the fact that that with both the ESS and eTorque 3.6 liter V-6 options I never found a single thing saying that JL Wranglers across the board except on the now 392 cu. in. V-8 that every engine had 2 batteries. Either the tiny one under the fuse box in the engine compartment or the big one under the drivers side body. And with the eTorque version I never saw a thing on it saying that it had a generator instead of an alternator. It had its own cooling system and water pump and when I ordered my Jeep, even the salesman thought mine came with ESS and even he and the dealership had little to no information on the eTorque components. So when I ordered mine, I did so thinking and believing that my JLUR had just a single battery and traditional alternator and that eTorque was simply something that gave my engine more torque for the first 1/2 wheel turn. And to me, I liked that idea because I envisioned it being helpful in off roading going over rocks, boulders and other obstacles. Had I known about the second battery, separate cooling system, generator and so on I would have most likely ordered the diesel and then went and put 4.10’s in it or some other lower gearing option.

But, I think I have figured out a way in how to delete the eTorque option after the warranty expires. Everything on the ESS 3.6 version is identical to the eTorque 3.6 version. So what I think that I will do when my warranty on the eTorque expires is to totally delete everything on it. Then order the replacement parts from an ESS 3.6 liter V-6 except for the tiny battery. For that option I will add to my Jeep the Genesis Off Road dual battery kit and will install 2, Series 25 batteries in it. I may actually do that anyway, before doing the eTorque delete in a few years but we’ll see?

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