Battery Replacement Question for the Experts

[OldGuyNewJeep]

Keep us posted on Batteries Plus. That's a big problem if that's how they handle their warranties.

Well, the plot thickens...

TL;DR - maintainers and trickle chargers are good for a fully charged battery. Had I been putting my Noco on a few times a week and then driving long enough to achieve full charge, it would have been OK. Once discharged, however, Northstar/Odyssey (thin Pb plate, low internal resistance) need MUCH higher current to achieve full charge. The YouTube presentation at bottom indicates 1C! (That would be 100a for a 100Ah Odyssey.)

Long version:

I took the battery to Batteries Plus. The manager/franchisee/whatever was *adamant* that he will “bring this back to life.” He claimed that “such a big battery” needs at least a 7a charger to bring it “back to life.” He also claimed it passed the load test even at 12.1v.

I said hogwash. 10 hour rating of the battery is 67 Ah (amp hours), and to get a 0.1C charge rate you need 7a… indeed, even I can divide by 10. BUT!! A 5a charger is perfectly capable of charging it fully, it just takes longer... or so I thought.

Anyway, he wasn’t having it. His plan? “I will throw 30a at it for 24 hours.”

I told him that I hope he has fire insurance, and to call me when he has a verdict.

I now kind of regret my snark. Why? Well, I reached out to Enersys who make Northstar/Odyssey and they confirmed what Batteries Plus is saying!

I asked them about a charger for my new Odyssey, which is 80 Ah @20hr and 76 Ah @10hr. I specifically asked if my Noco-5 was good enough. Their answer? No! I also asked if either their OBC-6a or OBC-12a charger would be better suited than my Noco-5, and they said the OBC-12a would be OK. (I didn't ask about the OBC-20a.)

I guess I have been confidently incorrect for quite some time, even arguing on this forum (in other threads) that a 1a tender is "good enough." In fact, a trickle charger is only good enough to maintain an already fully charged Northstar/Odyssey.

Hi Don,

Our recommended charge current is 40% of the battery's 20 hour rating and the minimum charge current is 10% of the battery's 20 hour rating. So for your 80 amp hour and 76 amp hour batteries, 6 amps is not enough and 12 amps is not too much. You could charge the batteries with current up to their 20 hour rating, if you had a high output charger.

Our thin plate pure lead batteries have very low internal resistance and need that current to increase the voltage during the charging process.

So, while internet group-think says 10% of rated Ah is the target, Enersys recommends 4x that for their batteries.

That means for the Northstar in question, right around 28a would be the max charging current and 7a would be the minimum. So Batteries Plus "throwing 30a at it" is not the awful idea I thought it was, apparently. (I wonder how many amps the high output JL alternator puts out while charging - I guess I could bust out my multimeter, again.)

Stay tuned... let's see if they do, indeed, bring it back to life (not that it is going back in my Jeep - I will have an expensive spare, either warrantied and replaced or "repaired").

Edit: I stumbled upon this presentation which happens to have been done by the same rep that replied to my inquiry. She's a slow talker, so 1.5x playback speed made it easier to get through.

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[DanW]

Well, the plot thickens...

TL;DR - maintainers and trickle chargers are good for a fully charged battery. Had I been putting my Noco on a few times a week and then driving long enough to achieve full charge, it would have been OK. Once discharged, however, Northstar/Odyssey (thin Pb plate, low internal resistance) need MUCH higher current to achieve full charge. The YouTube presentation at bottom indicates 1C! (That would be 100a for a 100Ah Odyssey.)

Long version:

I took the battery to Batteries Plus. The manager/franchisee/whatever was *adamant* that he will “bring this back to life.” He claimed that “such a big battery” needs at least a 7a charger to bring it “back to life.” He also claimed it passed the load test even at 12.1v.

I said hogwash. 10 hour rating of the battery is 67 Ah (amp hours), and to get a 0.1C charge rate you need 7a… indeed, even I can divide by 10. BUT!! A 5a charger is perfectly capable of charging it fully, it just takes longer... or so I thought.

Anyway, he wasn’t having it. His plan? “I will throw 30a at it for 24 hours.”

I told him that I hope he has fire insurance, and to call me when he has a verdict.

I now kind of regret my snark. Why? Well, I reached out to Enersys who make Northstar/Odyssey and they confirmed what Batteries Plus is saying!

I asked them about a charger for my new Odyssey, which is 80 Ah @20hr and 76 Ah @10hr. I specifically asked if my Noco-5 was good enough. Their answer? No! I also asked if either their OBC-6a or OBC-12a charger would be better suited than my Noco-5, and they said the OBC-12a would be OK. (I didn't ask about the OBC-20a.)

I guess I have been confidently incorrect for quite some time, even arguing on this forum (in other threads) that a 1a tender is "good enough." In fact, a trickle charger is only good enough to maintain an already fully charged Northstar/Odyssey.



So, while internet group-think says 10% of rated Ah is the target, Enersys recommends 4x that for their batteries.

That means for the Northstar in question, right around 28a would be the max charging current and 7a would be the minimum. So Batteries Plus "throwing 30a at it" is not the awful idea I thought it was, apparently. (I wonder how many amps the high output JL alternator puts out while charging - I guess I could bust out my multimeter, again.)

Stay tuned... let's see if they do, indeed, bring it back to life (not that it is going back in my Jeep - I will have an expensive spare, either warrantied and replaced or "repaired").

Edit: I stumbled upon this presentation which happens to have been done by the same rep that replied to my inquiry. She's a slow talker, so 1.5x playback speed made it easier to get through.

Optima makes a couple of very good chargers that can bring a pure lead AGM back from the dead, too.

 

[OldGuyNewJeep]

Optima makes a couple of very good chargers that can bring a pure lead AGM back from the dead, too.

I bit the bullet and ordered the Odyssey OBC-20a. It specifically lists the 950R-850 as being “supported.”

Buyer beware - Enersys’ fine print warns that they will not honor the two year charger warranty (or battery warranty, for that matter) if not purchased from an authorized reseller. So, I ordered the charger from Autozone and paid $20 more than Amazon has it.

No word on my Northstar, yet. We got a bunch of snow so maybe he was busy shoveling. ?

 

[RAO]

I bit the bullet and ordered the Odyssey OBC-20a. It specifically lists the 950R-850 as being “supported.”

Buyer beware - Enersys’ fine print warns that they will not honor the two year charger warranty (or battery warranty, for that matter) if not purchased from an authorized reseller. So, I ordered the charger from Autozone and paid $20 more than Amazon has it.

No word on my Northstar, yet. We got a bunch of snow so maybe he was busy shoveling. ?

So when one looks for a new battery, do they factor in the cost of this new charger? What would the impact be of using this higher current charger on an aux battery in parallel with the main battery?

 

[DanW]

So when one looks for a new battery, do they factor in the cost of this new charger? What would the impact be of using this higher current charger on an aux battery in parallel with the main battery?

If your Odyssey or Northstar did drain down like that you could just disconnect it and charge it with the higher amperage, then reconnect it.

I'm no expert, but I'd bet you could use 10 amp charging to do both. I've been running for 10 months with an Odyssey and a Die Hard AGM aux battery with no issues. I think the issue might be if you let it sit a long time. Mine has sat for 2 weeks a couple of times with no issue.

My JK has sat for up to a month with its Northstar and no issue. I want to say I've had that Northstar for 4 or 5 years or so. (It's the Batteries Plus X2 version.)

Btw, Oddyssey makes some smaller less expensive 12 amp version of their charger. Also a 6 amp, although I'm wondering if that'd be enough. I'm probably going to go with the small Optima, though. It has more settings to make it easier to set up for different battery types and a digital display.

For long term storage, I'd guess you could disconnect the big battery, fully charge it and then hook it back up and put the trickle charger on it. That'd maintain it while probably quickly bringing the little battery up.

I've never had one of these drain down, though, so I'm not at all speaking from experience. I didn't even sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I only watched the video @OldGuyNewJeep posted. Lol.

 

[OldGuyNewJeep]

So when one looks for a new battery, do they factor in the cost of this new charger? What would the impact be of using this higher current charger on an aux battery in parallel with the main battery?

To add to what Dan already replied, you don’t need the fancy charger I ordered.

If you drive every day, your alternator will do the job of charging for you. Back when I had a daily 60 mile commute I never had to worry about charging batteries. I’d plug in my little 1a Deltran every couple of weeks and things worked fine for three years.

According to Enersys, you can achieve full charge with 10% of rated amp hours (Ah). So for the Northstar X2, that’s a 7a charger and for the Odyssey 94r that’s an 8a charger.

That all means a Noco-10 would probably be just fine, and it’s only $99.

I will use my Noco-5 for my little AUX battery, and my new Odyssey for the 94R. Note that the Odyssey charger also does trickle/maintenance, so just like the Noco you just plug in in and forget about it.

Can you throw 10a at the AUX? Well, I guess that depends on who makes it. The internet consensus is that 0.1C is the safest charge rate for AGM batteries, so just take Ah and divide by 10. That said, “good” batteries like those made by Enersys want more current - 0.4C being preferred, but a whopping 1C is acceptable if one needs a rapid charge.

If you threw 1C at the stock AUX battery (or cranking battery, for that matter), you’d absolutely cook it.

TL;DR - it depends ?

 

[OldGuyNewJeep]

Looks a bit outdated, but here is the list of approved Odyssey chargers:

https://www.odysseybattery.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/ODYSSEY_approved_12V_chargers.pdf

Pretty short list, and those BatteryMinder ones are $500!!

Enersys’ YouTube videos make pretty clear that any decent charger that has at least 3 stages and provides 0.1C for the battery in question will work, but they also claim that the ones on that list have a proprietary algorithm for Enersys. Hmmm. Marketing jumbo jumbo? Dunno, but I’ve fallen for it.

 

[DanW]

Funny, I ordered an Optima digital 400 this morning around 8am. It arrived at 1:30pm. Hat's off to Amazon. That's a record for delivery speed to our house. Wow!

 

[OldGuyNewJeep]

Funny, I ordered an Optima digital 400 this morning around 8am. It arrived at 1:30pm. Hat's off to Amazon. That's a record for delivery speed to our house. Wow!

Let us know how you like it. I looked at that one, but some of the reviews about cooking batteries scared me off. (I think Amazon reviews have lost credibility over the years, so I try to take them with a grain of salt.)

 

[DanW]

Let us know how you like it. I looked at that one, but some of the reviews about cooking batteries scared me off. (I think Amazon reviews have lost credibility over the years, so I try to take them with a grain of salt.)

Actually, I never read the reviews. I've just heard word of mouth that they were good units. Kinda scary to hear of them cooking a battery.

I'll try it out on my JK's Northstar in the next few days and see how it does. I'll also try it on the dual purpose "regular" battery in my boat in the next couple weeks. It is 8 or 9 years old and works but seems to not be holding a charge as well as it used to. This thing is supposed to diagnose the health of the battery, so we'll see what it says about that one.

 

[OldGuyNewJeep]

Actually, I never read the reviews. I've just heard word of mouth that they were good units. Kinda scary to hear of them cooking a battery.

I'll try it out on my JK's Northstar in the next few days and see how it does. I'll also try it on the dual purpose "regular" battery in my boat in the next couple weeks. It is 8 or 9 years old and works but seems to not be holding a charge as well as it used to. This thing is supposed to diagnose the health of the battery, so we'll see what it says about that one.

I went to my history and I was actually looking at the 1200, not the 400.

Check out the very first review from Joshua (with video). Yikes!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009M3PQFA/

I’m actually inclined to blame the battery in that review - Optima has gone way downhill in terms of battery quality.

Do you have the Northstar X2 in your JK? I don’t think a 4a charger can get it where it needs to be… using my 5a Noco is what started me down this rabbit hole.

Anyway, Batteries Plus just called me while I was typing. They are ordering me a replacement. They can’t get it back to life. Was it my 5a charger or a defect? Who knows?

I am pleased that they are honoring the warranty, and that I will be getting a brand new battery and not a refurb. That said, having to hand over the bad one for two days is less than ideal.

I guess I now have a hot spare!

 

[Jebiruph]

Funny, I ordered an Optima digital 400 this morning around 8am. It arrived at 1:30pm. Hat's off to Amazon. That's a record for delivery speed to our house. Wow!

They're using precogs, they knew you were ordering before you knew.

 

[OldGuyNewJeep]

Well, I guess it's time to post a conclusion for anyone who stumbles into this thread.

1. Batteries Plus made good on the warranty. The replacement will be brand new, not a refurb. I'm happy about that. I have no reservation recommending them, and the owner/franchisee was fair. Admittedly I thought he was full of BS and so I was a bit snarky during our first interaction, but it turns out that a guy who owns a battery store knows more about batteries than me. Enersys backed up everything he told me.

2. Autozone and O'Reilly (I didn't check others) also require you hand over a failed battery for testing. Unclear if they need it for as long as Batteries Plus did, but the fact is that you're going to be without your vehicle while they decide. Also, it looks like they replace with a refurb - I don't like that. Where I live, these stores are terrible to deal with, too. I avoid them when I can.

3. FCP Euro (where I bought my new Odyssey battery) has an outstanding return/warranty policy. For folks like me who live close by, this is a phenomenal outfit and I will definitely buy batteries there again. (Price was also outstanding.) They do ship, but claiming warranty on a battery that was shipped seems like a big hassle. I certainly wouldn't want to mail back a 50lb battery, and it's one reason I never buy batteries on the internet.

4. Costco sells Interstate batteries. Arguably not as good as Enersys (Northstar/Odyssey), but their return/warranty process is the best. You just bring it in and they hand you a new one with no fuss. I will go this route next time my son's Honda or wife's Yukon need a battery.

5. Noco-5, as much as I like it, is not capable of *charging* big Ah AGM batteries. Yes, it can *maintain* a fully charged one, but once you get to 50% (12.1v) it will do more harm than good. The repair mode did nothing for my Northstar. I threw a multimeter on it while it was running, and all it does is spike voltage to 14+ in waves/pulses for a few hours. I confirmed with Enersys, directly, that a minimum of 10% Ah@20h is required. 35-40% preferred. They also have very informative YouTube videos on how and why this is true for their low resistance contruction. If a person wants a Noco for their Enerysys group 48 or group 94 battery - and they are awesome little units - they should go for the Noco-10 model (and I wouldn't use it for the AUX - you want between 2a and 5a for that little piece of junk).

My new Odyssey 20a charger arrived, yesterday, and I put it through its paces. It is a very impressive unit, and I have no regrets. 2x the price of the Noco-10, but it's a 6 stage unit, has a self test, is purpose built, and Made in USA.

I think a person would be wise to have a Noco-5 (great not just for the puny AUX, but it can do Lithium batteries which are gaining in popularity - my CAT generator with electric start has one) *and* a bigger, higher current one (Noco, CTek, Odyssey, BatteryMinder, Optima, etc. all are good). Yes, that's a $170 - $300+ investment depending on what you choose, but cheap insurance that will last a lifetime.

Well, there's my experience for anyone who cares.

By the way, the QR code right on Enersys batteries will take you to literature that explains a lot of this.

 

[DanW]

Well, I guess it's time to post a conclusion for anyone who stumbles into this thread.

1. Batteries Plus made good on the warranty. The replacement will be brand new, not a refurb. I'm happy about that. I have no reservation recommending them, and the owner/franchisee was fair. Admittedly I thought he was full of BS and so I was a bit snarky during our first interaction, but it turns out that a guys who owns a battery store knows more about batteries than me. Enersys backed up everything he told me.

2. Autozone and O'Reilly (I didn't check others) also require you hand over a failed battery for testing. Unclear if they need it for as long as Batteries Plus did, but the fact is that you're going to be without your vehicle while they decide. Also, it looks like they replace with a refurb - I don't like that. Where I live, these stores are terrible to deal with, too. I avoid them when I can.

3. FCP Euro (where I bought my new Odyssey battery) has an outstanding return/warranty policy. For folks like me who live close by, this is a phenomenal outfit and I will definitely buy batteries there, again. (Price was also outstanding.) They do ship, but claiming warranty on a battery that was shipped seems like a big hassle. I certainly wouldn't want to mail back a 50lb battery, and it's one reason I never buy batteries on the internet.

4. Costco sells Interstate batteries. Arguably not as good as Enersys (Northstar/Odyssey), but their return/warranty process is the best. You just bring it in and they hand you a new one with no fuss. I will go this route next time my son's Honda or wife's Yukon need a battery.

5. Noco-5, as much as I like it, is not capable of *charging* big Ah AGM batteries. Yes, it can *maintain* a fully charged one, but once you get to 50% (12.1v) it will do more harm than good. The repair mode did nothing for my Northstar. I threw a multimeter on it while it was running, and all it does is spike voltage to 14+ in waves/pulses for a few hours. I confirmed with Enersys, directly, that a minimum of 10% Ah@20h is required. 35-40% preferred. They also have very informative YouTube videos on how and why this is true for their low resistance contruction. If a person wants a Noco for their Enerysys group 48 or group 94 battery - and they are awesome little units - they should go for the Noco-10 model (and I wouldn't use it for the AUX - you want between 2a and 5a for that little piece of junk).

My new Odyssey 20a charger arrived, yesterday, and I put it through its paces. It is a very impressive unit, and I have no regrets. 2x the price of the Noco-10, but it's a 6 stage unit, has a self test, is purpose built, and Made in USA.

I think a person would be wise to have a Noco-5 (great not just for the puny AUX, but it can do Lithium batteries, which are gaining in popularity - my CAT generator with electric start has one) *and* a bigger, higher current one (Noco, CTek, Odyssey, BatteryMinder, Optima, etc. all are good). Yes, that's a $170 - $300+ investment depending on what you choose, but cheap insurance that will last a lifetime.

Well, there's my experience for anyone who cares.

By the way, the QR code right on Enersys batteries will take you to literature that explains a lot of this.

Thanks for sharing! I've learned a lot from your experience with all of this, especially about how to properly charge a pure-lead AGM properly. I had no clue that a maintainer wouldn't work. I did know about how a regular charger can't recover a pure lead AGM, but I didn't know all of the detailed info you shared.

I've had great experience with Batteries Plus, so I'm thrilled to hear that they were able to help you out. I've found our store folks here know their stuff, too. That's a good indicator of consistency for their brand.

One thing I do appreciate is the simple single battery on my JK. I hate that I need to disconnect the Odyssey from everything in my JL if I need to charge it. I'd love it if EnerSys develops a little Odyssey to replace the Aux battery.

 

[OldGuyNewJeep]

I hate that I need to disconnect the Odyssey from everything in my JL if I need to charge it.

I think you only have to disconnect the AUX negative, so not that big a deal.

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