Auxiliary battery delete problems

[AndySpill]

Sorry. I didn’t read anything I thought was logical. For example, you wrote this: “The two battery system may cutoff at the same voltage threshold for the JL as if there was one battery, but under the two battery system the battery responsible for the bulk of the cranking power under a 2 battery system, i.e. the main battery, is sparred during the ESS event so that it may focus its power on the crank.”

————

When cranking, the 2 batteries are effectively 1. If one battery is weaker than the other, the weak battery will draw power from the strong one, regardless of which battery it is. There is no focus.

And I contend that this power draw between the dissimilarly drained batteries, one brought back into parallel just before the post ESS crank, along with appliances, and the engine starter (right, you don't read unless you buy into it as well--the same guy who thinks dissimilar battery sizes in the dual AGL JLs is...."adequate" because he read somewhere that batteries can be hooked up in parallel if the same voltage and chemistry with no regard to dissimilar size or usage case) is less taxing on the main battery (and therefore more "focused") than your one battery taking the direct hit from these appliances.

This voltage equalization between the 2 AGM Dual batteries begins when they are reunited at the end of the ESS event and continues after the engine cranks and the alternator then replenishes both batteries. It's not an instantaneous thing. It happens over time, just as does both their replenishment by the alternator, which is why it's less of a hit to the main cranking battery than an already taxed one main battery of comparable or even slightly larger size that you propose.

Then, there's the theory that Stellantis used two batteries, at least in part, that I didn't even mention until now, to better regulate voltage for the entertainment appliances (and why?... because using two batteries does a better job of that than one comparable sized or slightly larger sized one) that your one battery idea doesn't address as well.

I guess you reject this notion of two batteries providing greater voltage stability because it sure would have been cheaper and better than that Aux battery if Stellantis could have pulled off one battery, even if slightly bigger than an H7 size in its non E-Torque ESS implementations (i.e. 3.6, 2.0 engines).

And unlike you, when I don't agree with you, I still read.

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[AndySpill]

Forget Shane's of Genesis Offroad's original dual battery offering. Bringing it up isn't fair to your point @andy29847 about one battery, as the dual battery nature of this kit was to optimize power for overlanding rather than, at least expressly, improve ESS.

But take Shane's two new offerings that seek to merely improve on the dual AGM battery factory setup, either by making the Aux battery more accessible, or replacing it with a larger battery, at slight expense to the size of the factory main battery, pairing that larger Aux battery with a main battery of equal size, and of course also make the new Aux battery more accessible.



I'd like to think in the later offering of those two group 25 batteries it could have been replaced by one really big battery, but no such offering was made. All wiring could have been rerouted to this one battery or Fuse 42 pulled/N1 N2 jumped.....

Was it to keep things factory? I think that "shipped already sailed" when he made his original kit and besides the Magnuson-Moss act puts the burden of proof for denying warranty service on the manufacturer that modifications were the cause of or contributed to a vehicle's failure before declaring a warranty void. It's hard to think of a way to make the stock dual AGM battery system worse.

Sure, enforcing the act could take litigation costs even if law's on the consumer's side (I'm saying this to try to be fair to you here) but if the one larger battery was indeed a better ESS mousetrap....it's curious that no such product has been forthcoming......

 

[andy29847]

And I contend that this power draw between the dissimilarly drained batteries, one brought back into parallel just before the post ESS crank, along with appliances, and the engine starter (right, you don't read unless you buy into it as well--the same guy who thinks dissimilar battery sizes in the dual AGL JLs is...."adequate" because he read somewhere that batteries can be hooked up in parallel if the same voltage and chemistry with no regard to dissimilar size or usage case) is less taxing on the main battery (and therefore more "focused") than your one battery taking the direct hit from these appliances.

This voltage equalization between the 2 AGM Dual batteries begins when they are reunited at the end of the ESS event and continues after the engine cranks and the alternator then replenishes both batteries. It's not an instantaneous thing. It happens over time, just as does both their replenishment by the alternator, which is why it's less of a hit to the main cranking battery than an already taxed one main battery of comparable or even slightly larger size that you propose.

Then, there's the theory that Stellantis used two batteries, at least in part, that I didn't even mention until now, to better regulate voltage for the entertainment appliances (and why?... because using two batteries does a better job of that than one comparable sized or slightly larger sized one) that your one battery idea doesn't address as well.

I guess you reject this notion of two batteries providing greater voltage stability because it sure would have been cheaper and better than that Aux battery if Stellantis could have pulled off one battery, even if slightly bigger than an H7 size in its non E-Torque ESS implementations (i.e. 3.6, 2.0 engines).

And unlike you, when I don't agree with you, I still read.

Read this:

Connecting batteries in parallel – BatteryGuy.com Knowledge Base

Excerpt:
Connecting batteries of different amp hour capacities in parallel
This is possible and won’t cause any major issues, but it is important to note some potential issues:

• Check your battery chemistries – Sealed Lead Acid batteries for example have different charge points than flooded lead acid units. This means that if recharging the two together, some batteries will never fully charge. The result here would be sulfation of those that never reach a full state of charge, reducing their lifespan.
• Double check voltages – if you are using batteries with different amp hour capacities, it is highly likely that the voltages will be different (even if the stated voltage on the labels match). Check this with a voltmeter or you will experience problems (covered in connecting batteries of different voltages in parallel above).

It is for these reasons that you are advised to use batteries of the same brand, voltage and capacity. Failing to do so (if you don’t have the knowledge and tools to check what you are doing) could create a potentially dangerous circuit.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Can I Mix Different Batteries in Parallel? (Different Voltage Batteries in Parallel) - Power Clues

Excerpt:
Can You Mix Batteries With Different Ah in Parallel?
You can absolutely mix batteries with different Ah in parallel. In fact, it’s often recommended to do so because it can help balance out the voltage and current between the two batteries. The only thing you need to be careful of is making sure that the total Ah of the two batteries doesn’t exceed the capacity of your charger.

Other than that, there’s no reason not to mix and match!

 

[AndySpill]

Read this:

Connecting batteries in parallel – BatteryGuy.com Knowledge Base

Excerpt:
Connecting batteries of different amp hour capacities in parallel
This is possible and won’t cause any major issues, but it is important to note some potential issues:

• Check your battery chemistries – Sealed Lead Acid batteries for example have different charge points than flooded lead acid units. This means that if recharging the two together, some batteries will never fully charge. The result here would be sulfation of those that never reach a full state of charge, reducing their lifespan.
• Double check voltages – if you are using batteries with different amp hour capacities, it is highly likely that the voltages will be different (even if the stated voltage on the labels match). Check this with a voltmeter or you will experience problems (covered in connecting batteries of different voltages in parallel above).

It is for these reasons that you are advised to use batteries of the same brand, voltage and capacity. Failing to do so (if you don’t have the knowledge and tools to check what you are doing) could create a potentially dangerous circuit.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Can I Mix Different Batteries in Parallel? (Different Voltage Batteries in Parallel) - Power Clues

Excerpt:
Can You Mix Batteries With Different Ah in Parallel?
You can absolutely mix batteries with different Ah in parallel. In fact, it’s often recommended to do so because it can help balance out the voltage and current between the two batteries. The only thing you need to be careful of is making sure that the total Ah of the two batteries doesn’t exceed the capacity of your charger.

Other than that, there’s no reason not to mix and match!

I think you're trolling me--and that's the complement. The less than flattering alternative is an inability to learn.

I've presented to you the dual AGM battery solution as better than one battery, even if its particularly implementation in dual AGM JLs is flawed due to its dissimilar size batteries, which aren't in parallel (like your textbook explanation requires) during ESS events, and subject to different load stresses (unlike your textbook explanation expects.)

Then you go and produce a chart strictly comparing CCA values of one big battery versus two and I try to explain to you that its better to spare a slightly smaller battery when the alternator isn't running and heavy load appliances are, to bear the brunt of the engine crank, than one slightly larger battery bearing these ESS loads and the engine crank.

So then you, the one big battery advocate, present me with how it's perfectly acceptable to pair up two dissimilar size batteries in parallel provided their voltages and chemistries are the same because you read it somewhere, and I go on to explain to you that the textbook knowledge your quoting isn't predicated on separating those batteries and subjecting them to uneven loads. You hear this from others. I suggest that more closely sized batteries that swap their roles as main and aux helps address this.

So then you requote, immediately above, that textbook knowledge, which I've not disputed as "adequate," your original word, but already explained to you has limited applicability here because in the JL those batteries are separated (not in parallel for a time as your source predicates) and subjected to disparate loads (not something your source information expects.)

Good luck. At this point I expect a chart that now shows amp hours rather than CCAs of one big battery compared to the combined amp hours of two batteries in parallel, as you now switch gears and advocate for the one battery solution, which will bring us back to the points of my third paragraph above.

 

[andy29847]

I think you're trolling me--and that's the complement. The less than flattering alternative is an inability to learn.

I've presented to you the dual AGM battery solution as better than one battery, even if its particularly implementation in dual AGM JLs is flawed due to its dissimilar size batteries, which aren't in parallel (like your textbook explanation requires) during ESS events, and subject to different load stresses (unlike your textbook explanation expects.)

Then you go and produce a chart strictly comparing CCA values of one big battery versus two and I try to explain to you that its better to spare a slightly smaller battery when the alternator isn't running and heavy load appliances are, to bear the brunt of the engine crank, than one slightly larger battery bearing these ESS loads and the engine crank.

So then you, the one big battery advocate, present me with how it's perfectly acceptable to pair up two dissimilar size batteries in parallel provided their voltages and chemistries are the same because you read it somewhere, and I go on to explain to you that the textbook knowledge your quoting isn't predicated on separating those batteries and subjecting them to uneven loads. You hear this from others. I suggest that more closely sized batteries that swap their roles as main and aux helps address this.

So then you requote, immediately above, that textbook knowledge, which I've not disputed as "adequate," your original word, but already explained to you has limited applicability here because in the JL those batteries are separated (not in parallel for a time as your source predicates) and subjected to disparate loads (not something your source information expects.)

Good luck. At this point I expect a chart that now shows amp hours rather than CCAs of one big battery compared to the combined amp hours of two batteries in parallel, as you now switch gears and advocate for the one battery solution, which will bring us back to the points of my third paragraph above.

I like the single battery alternative because it works. It has worked since cars were invented. I do not like Jeep's 2 battery system because the configuration offers little advantage and much complexity. The proof in the pudding, so to speak, are these many long discussions about batteries on the Jeep forums.

It is hard to deduce exactly what you are championing with your essays. The logic your have used in your notes is often flawed. All I've come up with so far is that you think the Jeep system is OK and the Gensis system is better. I have continued this discussion (after offering to stop if you would) because your arguments discount my offerings and offer your opinions with little supporting information.

I'm satisfied that one battery will work well in my Jeep.

 

[Mguy]

A debate about nothing. Sorry guys, this thread is not up to Seinfeld quality. Not even comedy writing here.

 

[AndySpill]

I like the single battery alternative because it works.

..until it doesn't--and mind you here the subject is running that one battery under ESS events, which unlike in the dual AGM battery approach, will more than likely just turns off the ESS system altogether if the batteries lack power to engage it safely, while your approach gives better chance for inability to crank post ESS event because you trick the JL into thinking that the main battery is both batteries.

I am not concerned, when I express what I think are best practices, what happens with a specific owner: no offense intended to your configuration's success. My guidance speaks to that larger group of people keeping their feet well before the line of concern, given the plethora of different configurations of potentially energy hungry aftermarket appliances they may or may not be running an a Wrangler: a vehicle that many may run stock, but that is probably one of the most likely of all brands to have just such energy hungry appliances installed on it.

It has worked since cars were invented.

This is precisely the lack of solid executive decision making I've citing you for lacking so clearly demonstrated in its full vigor. The conversation is, and always has been about the implementation of battery systems for dual AGM battery JLs, with all their potential aftermarket energy hungry appliances, running ESS systems, which haven't been around since vehicles were invented. Prior to such systems, in fact prior to Smart Alternators you were dealing with a situation where varying appliance demand, within reason, could be met by a running alternator that at the expense of fuel economy could invariably provide more power than needed. In ESS events there is just a battery delivering power, not simultaneously being replenished by an external device (i.e. the alternator.)

Your references to the acceptability of parallel connections among dissimilar size batteries of identical chemistry and voltage: that stuff is fine, say, for the solar world where those connections are permanent. DIY solar fans have been known to permanently pair battery banks in parallel and serial all over their installation to achieve desired goals for voltage and amp hours. In the dual AGM battery JL Wrangler world, to beat a dead horse--that I've already beat dead--that parallel connection is broken during ESS events and the batteries, then separated, are subject to disparate and independent loads before rejoining. As such many of the principles you sight of parallel connection become less applicable. I'm repeating myself because you're just not getting it.

I do not like Jeep's 2 battery system because the configuration offers little advantage and much complexity. The proof in the pudding, so to speak, are these many long discussions about batteries on the Jeep forums.

To which I say, and have always said fine, just best not to run ESS events.

It is hard to deduce exactly what you are championing with your essays.

Yeah, unlike you I stipulate my points in bullet items. https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/auxiliary-battery-delete-problems.126890/post-2657423 . This inability to deduce a poster's thesis: this is exactly the criticism I have of you. But unlike you I'll provide examples. You have gone from professing the benefits of one larger battery because its CCA exceeds the combined CCA of the factory batteries--to which I've poke holes at and why--and then you've switched to the "acceptability" of the stock dualAGM battery setup citing how it's okay to hook dissimilar size batteries of identical chemistry and voltage in permanent parallel, seemingly forgetting that permanent parallel is not the state they reside in in the dual AGM battery JL when under load with no energy source (a.k.a. an alternator) back filling them during ESS events.

The logic your have used in your notes is often flawed.

I'm giving you my best Dr. Evil "right" about now. I cite reasons why your logic is flawed while you claim it without citing examples.

All I've come up with so far is that you think the Jeep system is OK

Not only have I expressly said to the contrary, the dissimilar size batteries being a flawed design--a sentiment echoed by others here--but this notion of "OK" that you assign to me is actually your line when you called such parallel connections "acceptable."

and the Gensis system is better.

Wow, that was almost half right. What is said was that the two new Genesis battery relocation products were better for ESS because the first makes the crappy Aux battery easier to access (it's only benefit electrically at least) while the second kit introduces a larger Aux battery, equally sized to a identical and substitute from stock main battery, and makes all batteries, like the first kit accessible.

I have continued this discussion (after offering to stop if you would) because your arguments discount my offerings and offer your opinions with little supporting information.

Not only have I offered supporting information, but the supporting information you've provided is of limited applicability. With blinders on you look at a one battery solution via CCAs and fail to appreciate the benefit of isolation of even a smaller CCA post ESS event cranking battery.

And when in comes to two batteries, to beat "a decomposed, let alone dead horse," you cite the acceptability of parallel connections between disparate sized batteries of identical voltage and chemistry because you read it somewhere, failing to appreciate how, while that science is sound, it falls apart given that this parallel connection is broken in dual AGM battery JL ESS events, and the batteries subject to disparate loads with no backfill (the Aux battery: appliances, the main battery at ESS event end: the engine crank (along with the Aux), appliances, and a more depleted Aux battery) .

I'm satisfied that one battery will work well in my Jeep.

I have no issue, and never have, making my points crystal clear prior, with owners, like you, who run with one battery. I'd suggest that they avoid ESS events. I'm confident that if they don't, the vast majority of time they will be fine. It's the one time that they're not, where Murphy's Law I fear will also find them making a left turn on a highway, after an ESS event where the engine won't crank, that I worry about.

My mommy says I can't play with you on this topic anymore.

 

[andy29847]

I am not concerned, when I express what I think are best practices, what happens with a specific owner: no offense intended to your configuration's success. My guidance speaks to that larger group of people keeping their feet well before the line of concern, given the plethora of different configurations of potentially energy hungry aftermarket appliances they may or may not be running an a Wrangler: a vehicle that many may run stock, but that is probably one of the most likely of all brands to have just such energy hungry appliances installed on it.



My mommy says I can't play with you on this topic anymore.

Your post are windy. Your conclusions are based on suppositions that are not normally found in the world I have seen. For example, you have mentioned many times that Jeeps are a special case because owners tend to add "energy hungry appliances." In my experience, the power source for energy hungry appliances is almost always the main battery, not the aux battery.

You should listen to your Momma.

 

[dudecw]

At this point I am sorry I even started this thread.

 

[U EEDIOT]

At this point I am sorry I even started this thread.

?
Effin Andy?

 

[Terrymo]

Warning. Intentional irony to follow.
Logorrhea is a kind of verbosity that uses superfluous or fancy words to disguise a useless or simple message as useful or intellectual.

 

[U EEDIOT]

Warning. Intentional irony to follow.
Logorrhea is a kind of verbosity that uses superfluous or fancy words to disguise a useless or simple message as useful or intellectual.

WRONG!
Prove it!!!
?

 

[Halxen]

?
Effin Andy?

This thread somehow derailed into being the script for a new novel Tale of Two Andys ?

Warning. Intentional irony to follow.
Logorrhea is a kind of verbosity that uses superfluous or fancy words to disguise a useless or simple message as useful or intellectual.

100%

 

[andy29847]

At this point I am sorry I even started this thread.

Sorry to clog up the works. I was stuck inside and passing time by reading through threads that I find interesting. I'm not sure why AndySpill got so much attention (from me) unless it's because he's named Andy and he writes a lot.

 

[Senior_Chief]

I was installing some aftermarket inner fenders and thought I would take care of the auxiliary auto start stop battery while I had easy access. I pulled out the batteries and traced the cables. Ne negative went straight to the negative terminal on the main battery and the positive went up to the terminals on the side of the fuse box and then in another direction down to something below. I pulled out the negative entirely but just taped up the positive and left it in place. For the most part everything works just fine. I don't have any warning lights on the dash. The odd thing is, when I go to start the Jeep for the first time for the day it acts like I have disconnected the battery and then hooked it back up. When I push the start button it goes to "run" on the button but doesn't start the engine, I have to push it one more time. Also the big warning shown up on the center 12" display and I have to agree to whatever the terms are. I don't remember seeing that every time I started it before. If I park it for a moment and then hop back in after a short time like an hour or so, those things don't happen.

Anyone else see any of these issues when disconnecting the little battery? This is on a 2024 if that makes any difference.

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