Auxiliary battery delete problems

[AndySpill]

It is ironic that you continue to try and sell this scenario given the number of problems people have with the stock 2 battery configuration.

1) I don't understand what it is you think I am trying to "sell." Please state what scenario you think it is that I'm trying to push, let alone one that runs contrary to the problems people have with the stock 2 battery configuration you've referenced.
2) I state pros and cons of options and disclose my own situation for conflict of interest. Unlike so many forum members I rarely take the stance, "I do/buy "X" ...it's awesome" and leave it at that. I state why something worked for me and expressly convey a YMMV stance. I go so far as to bring in and respect fellow forum members who have taken different approaches to me so that readers can make a informed decision. Who else does that (read above where James comments as a product of my brining him into the fold--someone who I know takes a different approach than me)?
3) I advocate that people don't run ESS with one battery on a JL. How on earth does this advice conflict with the reality you state that people are having problems with the 2 battery stock configuration?
4) I opt, for those who want to run both batteries, that they trickle charge to address the reality you state that people are having problems with the 2 battery stock configuration.

Your turn.

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[rk911]

You don't have a standard AUX battery. E-Torque has a 48v AUX battery. The standard AUX battery bypass does not apply to you.

So I'm stuck with this 48v aux battery? I can't disconnect from the vehicle? No options at all?

 

[jludave]

So I'm stuck with this 48v aux battery? I can't disconnect from the vehicle? No options at all?

You bought the vehicle with this specific engine configuration. You didn't know what you were getting when you purchased?

You cannot eliminate the 48v battery.

 

[rk911]

You bought the vehicle with this specific engine configuration. You didn't know what you were getting when you purchased?

You cannot eliminate the 48v battery.

Yup...that's on me.

 

[OrneryBear]

So I'm stuck with this 48v aux battery? I can't disconnect from the vehicle? No options at all?

You don't need to delete the 48v aux battery. The e-torque doesn't have issues with the 48v aux battery like the rest of the JLs with the tiny 12v battery. You can just drive your jeep and not worry about it.

 

[AndySpill]

Yup...that's on me.

You're purchase, with or without hindsight, is hardly IMHO bad news.

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...e-what-it-is-how-it-works-what-it-does.74400/

 

[SargeDiesel]

@Gregj told you what to do; I'll tell you why.

When your dual AGM battery JL attempts a cold crank, prior to this it, using circuit 42, energizes the Power Control Relay (PCR) to attempt to separate the two batteries so as to test the Aux battery (that you have pulled) in isolation.

Because you have pulled it the test fails. Be glad you don't have an early 2018. Your actions would have stranded the vehicle.

In later model 2018's and beyond the start logic was changed that if this test fails, the subsequent crank is effected only against the main battery, and if successful, the ESS system is turned off by the vehicle.

By additionally pulling Fuse 42 you prevent the PCR from energizing and the batteries from being separated. Now, all calls to test just the ESS battery prior to cold crank now go to all available batteries, of which you only have left the main, which you have "tricked" your JL into thinking, for purposes of this test, is the ESS battery.

Your vehicle, with this Fuse 42 pull, unlike currently, will be none the wiser as to the absence of the ESS battery. If you don't turn ESS off with the button, or aftermarket tech the vehicle will be glad to run ESS events on the one main battery.

Countless other vehicle manufactuers run ESS this way, with one battery, but the "perfect storm" of a cold night, a long traffic light for an ESS event to occur in, a main battery "on its way out," and one too many aftermarket accessories drawing power (as are common for Wrangler owners) could, in theory, deplete the main battery of sufficient power that by the time its voltage drops low enough for your vehicle to early terminate the ESS event, inadequate power lies in this battery to effect the engine crank.

So do please in addition to the Fuse 42 pull, turn ESS off.

Andy

Very well said. Thank you for taking the time (and I know you've explained this numerous times)
to explain this once again in such easy to understand terms.

Question:
Considering our batteries have an IBS,
would it be possible to add something like this ?

PriorityStart ProMax Car Truck 12V Battery Vehicle Start Protector
https://a.co/d/6DnCD03

 

[SargeDiesel]

Reasons for keeping the Aux battery.

Of course the primary being 1) you want to run ESS events. With it connected it spares the main battery to effect the bulk of the post ESS event engine cranking (actually both batteries come together in parallel to effect the crank when the ESS event terminates.)

2) You want to keep the battery physically in your vehicle but disconnected at merely the negative terminal of the main battery for emergencies, and running equipment while overlanding, charging it on your own when parked. I think Rhinebeck01 does this FWIW.

3) You regularly trickle charge your batteries anyway as a hedge against this small battery cannibalizing the main battery and don't worry about the Aux battery going bad as much as a result.

I am of the opinion that if not running ESS events the statistical pros of keeping the ESS battery in place, and connected are outweighed by the cons.

But, unlike so many here I don't consider that which I do what others must do as well. My friend here James @Heimkehr turns off ESS but runs with both batteries (last I've checked). I guess if you've got a good Aux battery it does aid in the engine crank.

I've tagged him here so he can offer you his opinions on which you can make an informed decision.

My situation, which BTW need not be yours: different people different use cases is that I already have a roof rack that's rarely used and which I have a solar panel that trickle charges my batteries at rest. I run ESS events and keep both batteries connected. I am rare.

My batteries are going on three years of age, and I have two new ones in the garage I'm ready to swap in on the next not so cold day.

Andy,

I keep both of mine connected as well. I do use the "smartstopstart" like @Rhinebeck01 has mentioned.

So far I haven't had any problems.
*I do drive a JTRD, I'm guessing it's basically the same setup.

 

[SargeDiesel]

I see a lot of mentions of insulating a hot positive cable during the removal of the aux battery.

Does anyone have a real solution that is not a fire hazard?

I am not driving around with a large gauge battery connected hot wire.

Pairing down the cable assembly, a replacement cable, etc? I have made up battery cables for my hot rod vehicles, its not a big deal with solder terminals.

They are referring to the NEGATIVE BATTERY CABLES...

 

[THAW]

I see a lot of mentions of insulating a hot positive cable during the removal of the aux battery.

Does anyone have a real solution that is not a fire hazard?

I am not driving around with a large gauge battery connected hot wire.

Pairing down the cable assembly, a replacement cable, etc? I have made up battery cables for my hot rod vehicles, its not a big deal with solder terminals.

Attach the Aux/ESS battery cable positive terminal connector to the main battery positive terminal.

Or, remove the cable: https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/jumperless-aux-battery-bypass.95945/post-2652621

 

[AndySpill]

Andy

Very well said. Thank you for taking the time (and I know you've explained this numerous times)
to explain this once again in such easy to understand terms.

Question:
Considering our batteries have an IBS,
would it be possible to add something like this ?

PriorityStart ProMax Car Truck 12V Battery Vehicle Start Protector
https://a.co/d/6DnCD03

Michael:

I completely understand what your linked device does....disengaging the vehicle's batteries from the vehicle while parked, and I must humbly reply...

....I simply don't know the answer to your question.

I hope others will chime in with more informed responses here.

That said, such a device would have to of course disconnect both dual AGM batteries on JLs equipped as such.

My concern lies with aspects of the vehicle's electronics that pretty much rely on the idea of having access to power, even when the vehicle is off, when they need it. I'm not so sure that this will do harm: clearly there are times in the service life of a vehicle where all power is disconnected from it and it "lives to tell about it" I'm just concerned with the things that might get reset, like the Intelligent Battery System (IBS) that has been collecting data on vehicle usage, and the entertainment system, etc.

I curious as to others thoughts on this too. I might also hazard a guess that for its price one might acquire trickle charging capabilities: solar or shore powered, and deal with parasitic electrical draw by compensating for rather than preventing it.

 

[SargeDiesel]

Michael:

I completely understand what your linked device does....disengaging the vehicle's batteries from the vehicle while parked, and I must humbly reply...

....I simply don't know the answer to your question.

I hope others will chime in with more informed responses here.

That said, such a device would have to of course disconnect both dual AGM batteries on JLs equipped as such.

My concern lies with aspects of the vehicle's electronics that pretty much rely on the idea of having access to power, even when the vehicle is off, when they need it. I'm not so sure that this will do harm: clearly there are times in the service life of a vehicle where all power is disconnected from it and it "lives to tell about it" I'm just concerned with the things that might get reset, like the Intelligent Battery System (IBS) that has been collecting data on vehicle usage, and the entertainment system, etc.

I curious as to others thoughts on this too. I might also hazard a guess that for its price one might acquire trickle charging capabilities: solar or shore powered, and deal with parasitic electrical draw by compensating for rather than preventing it.

Great points.

I should of clarified, I was curious if it would work for those that "deleted" the aux. Also as a preventative to that "perfect storm" you referenced.

I agee about sensitive electronics, but I believe the cutoff would only occur when the battery dropped below the excepted level to start the vehicle. I would think if the voltage gets low enough for this to disconnect power, that would also be low enough to already effect the electronics ?‍

I would think the overlanders would have experience with this ?

Hopefully someone else will chime in with the knowledge or experience.

 

[andy29847]

1) I don't understand what it is you think I am trying to "sell." Please state what scenario you think it is that I'm trying to push, let alone one that runs contrary to the problems people have with the stock 2 battery configuration you've referenced.

but the "perfect storm" of a cold night, a long traffic light for an ESS event to occur in, a main battery "on its way out," and one too many aftermarket accessories drawing power (as are common for Wrangler owners) could, in theory, deplete the main battery of sufficient power that by the time its voltage drops low enough for your vehicle to early terminate the ESS event, inadequate power lies in this battery to effect the engine crank.

ESS events are terminated in the neighborhood of 12.4 volts, leaving plenty of power to restart the vehicle, regardless of the number of batteries, the time of night, or the current weather conditions. The Jeep batteries function as one during a start. The Jeep system monitors battery condition even if the aux is removed.

The chances of surprise battery trouble increase when you have 2 batteries.

 

[rk911]

You're purchase, with or without hindsight, is hardly IMHO bad news.

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...e-what-it-is-how-it-works-what-it-does.74400/

I just didn't, obviously, didn't go deep enough.

 

[AndySpill]

ESS events are terminated in the neighborhood of 12.4 volts leaving plenty of power to restart the vehicle regardless of the number of batteries, the time of night, or the current weather conditions. The Jeep batteries function as one during a start. The Jeep system monitors battery condition even if the aux is removed.

The chances of surprise battery trouble increase when you have 2 batteries.

I don't advocate for two batteries. I don't advocate for one. What I say is that if you've made the choice to not run ESS events, that statistically speaking, IMHO, you a probably better off disconnecting the Aux battery precisely for the "surprise battery trouble you cite."

I think we're on the same page here and you're taking issue because you've read me wrong or haven't read what I've said.

I've also said that if you're running with one battery that I think it best to not engage the ESS system, although not the end of the world if you do, especially if you forget to turn ESS off Here's why:

The (12.4) Volts you cite I'll assume correct) is but one metric of a battery's ability to delivery electrical current (i.e. power), and a limited one at that. It's true test--and I think you know this--is a load test, which measures its ability to delivery power (which include volts and amps, or should I say volts multiplied by amps, a.k.a. watts, joules, horsepower, BTUs, calories--pick your poison, etc.), how fast, over what period of time, and equally important, for that battery to be able to accept that charge back from the alternator and how fast: AGM batteries being known, all else equal, for relative speed in doing this among their class of battery (lead acid)--say compared to its sealed lead acid (SLA) cousin.

In your first sentence you equate volts and power. As just mentioned they are not the same, the latter being the true thing that the vehicle is in need of to effect the crank. Sure, more volts means more power but amperage plays just as important a role.

I think you know most of this. What I question is your ability to put it all together to make smart decisions.

I think--I'm not sure--that the advice you disagree with of mine is when I advocate the disabling of the ESS system if running with only one battery, based on the checks and balances in the vehicle you cite to early terminate an ESS event in time, with enough voltage to effect the crank. If I understand you correctly I think that you find it unnecessary for owners to turn ESS off with one battery given this 12.4 volt threshold for early ESS event termination--one battery or two connected.

Let's forget for a second the lag time between early termination of an ESS event on a cold crank--we'll assume it instantaneous. That main battery that you are so confident that at 12.4 volts has the capacity to crank the engine may have to do more than that. It may also have to energize the very energy hungry appliances I cite, the Wrangler owners tend to install, (that aren't installed on most (but certainly not all) vehicles running ESS systems) that rapidly depleted the main battery and only battery in an ESS event in the first place, often directly connected to the main battery's terminals, where (and I'll give it to you again, because I know you "love it")

the "perfect storm" of a cold night, a long traffic light for an ESS event to occur in, a main battery "on its way out," and one too many aftermarket accessories drawing power (as are common for Wrangler owners) could, in theory, deplete the main battery of sufficient power that by the time its voltage drops low enough for your vehicle to early terminate the ESS event, inadequate power lies in this battery to effect the engine crank.

Notice I said power, not volts.

So to bring us back full circle, this was your opening "salvo:"

"It is ironic that you continue to try and sell this scenario given the number of problems people have with the stock 2 battery configuration."

Nonsense. What I sell is that the savings of $0.004 (0.4 cents) in gasoline by having ESS engage while sitting in near opposing high speed traffic, trying to make a left turn, is not worth the danger of getting stuck there, unable to crank after an ESS event run on a factory dual AGM battery JL running just one battery--and I'm one of those people who support the use of ESS (when both batteries are installed and working in dual AGM battery JLs) to try to reduce CO2 waste.

In two battery scenarios, where the main battery is untouched during ESS events, not depleted down to 12.4 volts, where the vehicle has also tested the Aux battery pre-crank, my confidence level for those "left hand turners" exceeds reasonable thresholds of safety for me to be fine with ESS engaging.

And yes, I fully get that nearly every single other vehicle out there runs ESS with one battery, including the Bronco (another energy hungry appliance customized rig) and that, ironically enough, Stellantis may have put in the Aux battery to keep the entertainment system running, not for insuring post crank success after an ESS event.

I guess I am not in favor of running a mission critical system (engine cranking mid travel) against factory spec, Genesis Offroad equipment, whose excellent system exceeds factory spec, being an obvious exception.

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