Another Prodigy Performance JL Stage 2 Turbo

[oceanblue2019]

I would think the PSI in the cylinder is only half the equation. The other half is how robustly built the block, cylinder heads, rods, etc are built. There are motors you can safely boost, and there are motors you can't. Because of that, comparing the PSI in one motor to another doesn't really tell you anything, IMO.

The higher the cylinder pressure means the more HP and torque you get out; if you can ignite the a/f mix fully. At some point ignition becomes problematic. At some point something needs to fail.

A knocking rod means enough pressure to collapse the oil lubrication in the rod bearings to cause physical damage. It means those bearings are being loaded well beyond the design limits to cause this problem. Better oiling could have helped this; but not sure improved oil pumps and such are available and if the passages themselves can carry enough oil to prevent it.

The other common failure is to have the cylinders themselves simply blow a hole in the side of the block.

I've not seen and one report a crank break; or rods break; which is interesting. It indicates those are not the problems.

I used to run a 1200 HP Ford 302 (not mod motor; good old pushrod V8) and it was a real learning experience. I was running a Cartech kit originally but it evolved into a complete custom and broke a lot, spent a lot, and had a lot of fun in the process.

Also remember 8 psi of turbo boost is much different than 8 psi from a centrifugal supercharger. The turbo will be into boost much sooner and a much wider and higher torque curve. This is what breaks shit. Not that the turbo is bad, it just makes a lot more torque.

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[CoolTech]

Not fun to watch as I’m literally working on dates/timing to have the Prodigy turbo installed and getting a good tune/tuner has been my biggest stress point. This didn’t help with that stress at all...

Shawn - Not a tough decision. Don't do it. Salvage what $$ you can - maybe reselling the kit or whatever, but don't do it.

 

[ShawnC]

Thanks. I haven’t actually “officially” ordered yet, so I still have options.

I’ve chatted with someone on this forum who is running the Prodigy turbo on his JL. He has a great tuner and has provided me with a lot of information. That being said, I’m still hesitating, especially with hearing about pre-destination issues with some JL’s.

I think with a good tuner/tune, you’d be ok with this turbo kit. I think I’d want some forged internals though, and I’m only seeing those for the JK 3.6L right now.

I know Bruiser knows Wranglers and LS3’s inside and out, and it’s really tempting to go the swap route. But the $$$ over what the turbo costs makes the FI route look like the way to go.

This is my 5th Jeep. The only engine performance upgrades I’ve had done before (outside of wider TBs, spacers, timing advances, etc) were stroker kits. I know little about FI, especially when it comes to tuning.

Like I said, I bought this JLU with the intention of FI being my first big mod. But if that can’t happen, the jump from ~10k for FI to ~30k for a swap is a big one.

Decisions, decisions...

And again, appreciate all the feedback on this forum, especially with me being brand new here.

-Shawn

 

[bkjolly]

Thanks. I haven’t actually “officially” ordered yet, so I still have options.

I’ve chatted with someone on this forum who is running the Prodigy turbo on his JL. He has a great tuner and has provided me with a lot of information. That being said, I’m still hesitating, especially with hearing about pre-destination issues with some JL’s.

I think with a good tuner/tune, you’d be ok with this turbo kit. I think I’d want some forged internals though, and I’m only seeing those for the JK 3.6L right now.

I know Bruiser knows Wranglers and LS3’s inside and out, and it’s really tempting to go the swap route. But the $$$ over what the turbo costs makes the FI route look like the way to go.

This is my 5th Jeep. The only engine performance upgrades I’ve had done before (outside of wider TBs, spacers, timing advances, etc) were stroker kits. I know little about FI, especially when it comes to tuning.

Like I said, I bought this JLU with the intention of FI being my first big mod. But if that can’t happen, the jump from ~10k for FI to ~30k for a swap is a big one.

Decisions, decisions...

And again, appreciate all the feedback on this forum, especially with me being brand new here.

-Shawn

Consider the money in the long run if you do have issues with the turbo. If you do an LS3 or Hemi swap both of those engines are damn near bullet proof so I suspect you'd spend less mechanically in the long run with an complete engine swap. Tires may suffer though. If I was going to do a swap I probably go with Dakota customs and do a 6.4L Hemi and an 8HP75 just because it's a Fiat Chrysler engine going back into a Fiat Chrysler product but I'm weird like that.

 

[CoolTech]

Shawn, on many cars it is ALL about the Tuner. However, in the case of the Jeep's ECU, tuners simply don't have the granularity of control that is available to them in other Brands. Tuners have NOT reverse-engineered the FCA ECU's to the same level as they have for other brands. There are SIGNIFICANT differences between ECU architectures and logic. Yes, they have located the tables for things like timing and fuel and they can change the values. However, the ECU's contain much different logic as to how a table value may be used. As an example, the ECU may pluck a value out of the table "as is" in some conditions, but in other conditions, it may alter the value or choose instead to average nearby cells in other conditions. As such, even "good" tuners can be left scratching their heads when the ECU seemingly does NOT do what they thought it would do. This is why people are churning through multiple tuners and they are STILL not having good success. It is not necessarily the tuner's fault.... it's just a fact the aftermarket simply has not reversed this ECU to sufficient detail.

The PRECISION needed to tune an already high compression motor to accept forced induction is simple incredible. You need precision down to the gnat's ass... and it's just NOT there yet.

Its not a matter of *IF* the Prodigy will fail, it's a matter of *WHEN*. Move on. This story has been written.

 

[alphalife9]

Shawn, on many cars it is ALL about the Tuner. However, in the case of the Jeep's ECU, tuners simply don't have the granularity of control that is available to them in other Brands. Tuners have NOT reverse-engineered the FCA ECU's to the same level as they have for other brands. There are SIGNIFICANT differences between ECU architectures and logic. Yes, they have located the tables for things like timing and fuel and they can change the values. However, the ECU's contain much different logic as to how a table value may be used. As an example, the ECU may pluck a value out of the table "as is" in some conditions, but in other conditions, it may alter the value or choose instead to average nearby cells in other conditions. As such, even "good" tuners can be left scratching their heads when the ECU seemingly does NOT do what they thought it would do. This is why people are churning through multiple tuners and they are STILL not having good success. It is not necessarily the tuner's fault.... it's just a fact the aftermarket simply has not reversed this ECU to sufficient detail.

The PRECISION needed to tune an already high compression motor to accept forced induction is simple incredible. You need precision down to the gnat's ass... and it's just NOT there yet.

Its not a matter of *IF* the Prodigy will fail, it's a matter of *WHEN*. Move on. This story has been written.

This is only true until the ECU is fully understood. High compression and boost is absolutely doable (think C7 non-Z06 Corvette and aftermarket turbo or supercharger).

 

[SnowDog]

The higher the cylinder pressure means the more HP and torque you get out; if you can ignite the a/f mix fully. At some point ignition becomes problematic. At some point something needs to fail...

Good info, thank you.

 

[oceanblue2019]

This is only true until the ECU is fully understood. High compression and boost is absolutely doable (think C7 non-Z06 Corvette and aftermarket turbo or supercharger).

Correct! But not sure when that will happen for several reasons.

 

[bkjolly]

This is only true until the ECU is fully understood. High compression and boost is absolutely doable (think C7 non-Z06 Corvette and aftermarket turbo or supercharger).

Well the small block LT1 kits use 5 or 6 lbs of boost on the high compression engines but the Prodigy kit is using 9 lbs of boost. Also also the Chevy small block is a proven engine where the Pentastar is essentially an all new engine for the JL. I'm no expert but I suspect that Prodigy used too much boost in order to get close to engine swap numbers which is more the issue than the ECU programming. The engine internals weren't designed to handle any boost much less 9 psi. If the Pentastar had 10:1 compression maybe you could get away with the 9 lbs of boost but at 11:5:1 I think the 9 psi is a bit excessive.

 

[FlyByU]

The kit is 7.2 psi. I can honestly say a real tune goes a long way in making this kit safe and reliable. I have used and trashed both tunes the prodigy kit has/uses, not a good tune imo. I am confident that the tune I run is 2 of a kind, mine and one other. All issues are virtually gone but this is at 93 octane. I dont think this higher compression motor will do well at 91 octane etc.. without a meth kit or something to augment the octane and reduce detonation.

I know there will be those that say ya ya, you got the magic tune. lol, I know Ive said the same myself.. my tuner has spent an enormous amount of time and built tables that did not exist in the factory pcm to account for boost and the computers ability to understand it. Its not just another fuel and spark adjustment. It actually gets rid of all the hiccups of dead pedal, surging, pulsing, falling on its face and most importantly, it has virtually all of the safe guards of knock sensors in place. So in short, this kit is a nice kit, not a perfect fit for the new higher compression JL 3.6 motor but........ there is a way and to date, mine is running and performing well at 7.2 psi.

This is something that most tuners would never put the time in to, this is no doubt something that prodigy should have as part of their kit imo.

 

[oceanblue2019]

The kit is 7.2 psi. I can honestly say a real tune goes a long way in making this kit safe and reliable. I have used and trashed both tunes the prodigy kit has/uses, not a good tune imo. I am confident that the tune I run is 2 of a kind, mine and one other. All issues are virtually gone but this is at 93 octane. I dont think this higher compression motor will do well at 91 octane etc.. without a meth kit or something to augment the octane and reduce detonation.

I know there will be those that say ya ya, you got the magic tune. lol, I know Ive said the same myself.. my tuner has spent an enormous amount of time and built tables that did not exist in the factory pcm to account for boost and the computers ability to understand it. Its not just another fuel and spark adjustment. It actually gets rid of all the hiccups of dead pedal, surging, pulsing, falling on its face and most importantly, it has virtually all of the safe guards of knock sensors in place. So in short, this kit is a nice kit, not a perfect fit for the new higher compression JL 3.6 motor but........ there is a way and to date, mine is running and performing well at 7.2 psi.

This is something that most tuners would never put the time in to, this is no doubt something that prodigy should have as part of their kit imo.

Do you have some sort of data logging you run to send to the tuner?

 

[bkjolly]

The kit is 7.2 psi. I can honestly say a real tune goes a long way in making this kit safe and reliable. I have used and trashed both tunes the prodigy kit has/uses, not a good tune imo. I am confident that the tune I run is 2 of a kind, mine and one other. All issues are virtually gone but this is at 93 octane. I dont think this higher compression motor will do well at 91 octane etc.. without a meth kit or something to augment the octane and reduce detonation.

I know there will be those that say ya ya, you got the magic tune. lol, I know Ive said the same myself.. my tuner has spent an enormous amount of time and built tables that did not exist in the factory pcm to account for boost and the computers ability to understand it. Its not just another fuel and spark adjustment. It actually gets rid of all the hiccups of dead pedal, surging, pulsing, falling on its face and most importantly, it has virtually all of the safe guards of knock sensors in place. So in short, this kit is a nice kit, not a perfect fit for the new higher compression JL 3.6 motor but........ there is a way and to date, mine is running and performing well at 7.2 psi.

This is something that most tuners would never put the time in to, this is no doubt something that prodigy should have as part of their kit imo.

Just by what you're saying the kit seems like a bad investment for the average person. I kind of think long term a person would be better of doing a LS or Hemi swap in terms of reliability. Maybe even a Pro Charger but the Turbo kit seems to problematic.

 

[FlyByU]

Do you have some sort of data logging you run to send to the tuner?

Yes logging with the provided hp tuners software. It's a must

Just by what you're saying the kit seems like a bad investment for the average person. I kind of think long term a person would be better of doing a LS or Hemi swap in terms of reliability. Maybe even a Pro Charger but the Turbo kit seems to problematic.

No doubt not for the average Joe in my opinion, I think the motor swaps are so pricey they aren't for the average Joe either.

None of this is smart lol.

 

[bkjolly]

Yes logging with the provided hp tuners software. It's a must



No doubt not for the average Joe in my opinion, I think the motor swaps are so pricey they aren't for the average Joe either.

None of this is smart lol.

Well with an engine swap you have your original engine to sell so it bridges the gap some and comes with a warranty.

 

[FlyByU]

Perhaps, a little help but not sure you've priced them lately. Its 11k plus all the oem parts for the 6.4 swap (20k total) and the hellcat is huge money. Trust me, I would have rather done that but it was just toooooooooooooooooo expensive.

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