2019 lemon

[Mudduck]

I'm REALLY glad I'm not the only one who read it and had to question the reality I was existing in at the moment...

You were not alone my friend….

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[TheRaven]

It was. The only Italian-designed components of the JL are the turbo-4 and bits of the interior. The JL was based on... the JK, and has far more in common with it than not.

Anyone who has wrenched in the engine bay of both a JK and JL will tell you this is incorrect. The JL was designed by an Italian company with Italian design ethos and processes, and it CLEARLY shows. The JL has almost NOTHING in common with the JK, from a technical standpoint.

If you need any more evidence, just look at the stark difference in quality and reliability between the two platforms.

 

[Asuriyan]

Anyone who has wrenched in the engine bay of both a JK and JL will tell you this is incorrect. The JL was designed by an Italian company with Italian design ethos and processes, and it CLEARLY shows. The JL has almost NOTHING in common with the JK, from a technical standpoint.

If you need any more evidence, just look at the stark difference in quality and reliability between the two platforms.

Have you actually seen the engine bays side by side? Between a JK and a non-eTorque JL (both with the Pentastar), the biggest change is that the battery and the PDC swapped places to make room for the aux battery. The layout is nearly identical otherwise, from coolant hose routing to wiring looms. Contrast with my wife's Compass, which is bass-ackwards from every possible standpoint compared to older Jeeps, but somehow manages to keep the engine bay relatively uncluttered.

Yes, the BCM has more to keep track of, and the associated floor pan wiring is a little more complex.... but let's not pretend the JK wasn't riddled with failing clock springs, wheel speed sensors, TIPMs, and other electrical gremlins that were mostly ironed out with the JL. Of any Jeep model, the JK is the least deserving of the rose colored goggles that people seem to view older models through, German transmission or no.

Blame the nameless Italians for your issues if you want, but American design, assembly, and dealership experience are the primary pain points for every Jeep owner for the last 20+ years and will continue to be.

 

[TheRaven]

Have you actually seen the engine bays side by side? Between a JK and a non-eTorque JL (both with the Pentastar), the biggest change is that the battery and the PDC swapped places to make room for the aux battery. The layout is nearly identical otherwise, from coolant hose routing to wiring looms.

Yes, the BCM has more to keep track of, and the associated floor pan wiring is a little more complex.... but let's not pretend the JK wasn't riddled with failing clock springs, wheel speed sensors, TIPMs, and other electrical gremlins that were mostly ironed out with the JL. Of any Jeep model, the JK is the least deserving of the rose colored goggles that people seem to view older models through, German transmission or no.

Blame the nameless Italians for your issues if you want, but American design, assembly, and dealership experience are the primary pain points for every Jeep owner for the last 20+ years and will continue to be.

Yes i'm very familiar with the JK and it's obviously German-inspired technical layout. The JL's problems are VERY Italian in nature. A poorly thought-out electrical/data architecture resulting in chronic and confounding electrical issues that are difficult to impossible to troubleshoot...that's as Italian as it gets.

Even today you will find lots of 10-15 year old JKs still on the road. 10-15 year old JLs will be EXTREMELY hard to come by in the future. They will be cost-prohibitive to keep on the road for anyone but the most die-hard fans.

 

[NWJeepr]

Sounds like it's time for the OPs to buy a Toyota.

"Lemon" is a legal definition here in the US, I'm sure Canada has its own set of laws. In any case, a 4 year old vehicle out of warranty is unlikely to qualify.

b*tching about it won't help, either.

 

[BaconFury]

It needed a camshaft so the newly non-existent installed distributor had something to mate to.

Something smells like week old sushi about all of this. Your Jeep doesn't have a distributor, and the camshaft issue doesn't sound like a remote start killer.

All that said, before you get a lawyer get a good technician to look at the Jeep. "Good technician" doesn't necessarily mean someone at a dealership that was selling shoes last month.

C'mon now, it needed a camshaft so the newly non-existent installed distributor had something to mate to.

 

[mtbjeep]

Yes i'm very familiar with the JK and it's obviously German-inspired technical layout. The JL's problems are VERY Italian in nature. A poorly thought-out electrical/data architecture resulting in chronic and confounding electrical issues that are difficult to impossible to troubleshoot...that's as Italian as it gets.

Even today you will find lots of 10-15 year old JKs still on the road. 10-15 year old JLs will be EXTREMELY hard to come by in the future. They will be cost-prohibitive to keep on the road for anyone but the most die-hard fans.

Crap. I didn't know my JL was going to implode in 4 years. Bummer. I was just starting to like her.

All jokes aside and, having nothing of any value to add to this thread, my biggest concern is that the manual is probably on its way out. Once that happens I might as well drive a Toyota and bore myself to death in something really vanilla flavored.

 

[Asuriyan]

Yes i'm very familiar with the JK and it's obviously German-inspired technical layout. The JL's problems are VERY Italian in nature. A poorly thought-out electrical/data architecture resulting in chronic and confounding electrical issues that are difficult to impossible to troubleshoot...that's as Italian as it gets.

Even today you will find lots of 10-15 year old JKs still on the road. 10-15 year old JLs will be EXTREMELY hard to come by in the future. They will be cost-prohibitive to keep on the road for anyone but the most die-hard fans.

Yes, I'm very familiar with the late-model TJs and their obviously German-inspired technical layout - a Mercedes transmission, along with computer-controlled timing and an OBD interface. The JK's problems are VERY German in nature. It also has a German transmission, along with ABS, power locks and passenger airbags - an obvious Mercedes influence.

Even today you'll find lots of 25+ year old TJs on the road. 20-25 year old JKs will be EXTREMELY hard to come by in the future.

Queue my 2007 JK Sport with 241k miles on the original engine and transmission, wondering what the fuss is about. Every new generation of Jeep gets this exact commentary. I'd still rather wrench on my 2023 than any other vehicle made in the last 20 years... and yes, that includes the electrical system.

 

[TheRaven]

Queue my 2007 JK Sport with 241k miles on the original engine and transmission, wondering what the fuss is about. Every new generation of Jeep gets this exact commentary. I'd still rather wrench on my 2023 than any other vehicle made in the last 20 years... and yes, that includes the electrical system.

The Wrangler gets a new generation every what...12 years? That alone should tell a smart person that what happened in the last generation has little to no bearing on the current generation...add to that the fact that it seems that each generation is created by completely different people under completely different leadership using completely different processes. So yeah...i'd expect that with each new generation of Wrangler people are saying the same thing - and it's for damn good reason.

 

[Asuriyan]

The Wrangler gets a new generation every what...12 years? That alone should tell a smart person that what happened in the last generation has little to no bearing on the current generation...add to that the fact that it seems that each generation is created by completely different people under completely different leadership using completely different processes. So yeah...i'd expect that with each new generation of Wrangler people are saying the same thing - and it's for damn good reason.

The last major technical innovation to the Wrangler formula was the TJ's addition of Quadra-Link suspension replacing leaf springs. Since then, every design change has been to accommodate the core identity of a ladder frame, two stick axles, a removable roof, and all of the inherent compromises those entail - meaning 90% of the design carries over from model to model. Most of the key team of engineers have been around through three Wrangler generations and four corporate parents, and couldn't give a shit less who signs their checks. Ask any of them, and they'll sing about how many liberties they were given for the JL - compared to the parts-bin design that was slapped together for the JK during the final years of Daimler ownership.

But hey, I'm just an electrical engineer with 15+ years of automotive industry experience in controls systems and powertrain integration. Go ahead and tell me how smart people think.

 

[TheRaven]

The last major technical innovation to the Wrangler formula was the TJ's addition of Quadra-Link suspension replacing leaf springs. Since then, every design change has been to accommodate the core identity of a ladder frame, two stick axles, a removable roof, and all of the inherent compromises those entail - meaning 90% of the design carries over from model to model. Most of the key team of engineers have been around through three Wrangler generations and four corporate parents, and couldn't give a shit less who signs their checks. Ask any of them, and they'll sing about how many liberties they were given for the JL - compared to the parts-bin design that was slapped together for the JK during the final years of Daimler ownership.

But hey, I'm just an electrical engineer with 15+ years of automotive industry experience in controls systems and powertrain integration. Go ahead and tell me how smart people think.

We have something in common - my experience is very similar to yours - I spent more time in automation and data networks but there's a lot of overlap in our experience.

But with that experience you should recognize that the frame, suspension, engine, transmission, and driveline are only minor concerns with a modern vehicle like the JL. Electrical/electronics and the data network are now the big-ticket items. For the same reason, the fact that the JL is a body-on-ladder-frame, live axle, steering box, V6-powered off-road focused sport utility just like the JK means absolutely nothing. So let's stop hammering on the "mechanicals" and start recognizing that the "electricals" are what we should be talking about.

Also the idea that the fact that the design team is now managed by an Italian company instead of a German one doesn't mean anything is flat out insane. Sorry but dude you're nuts. It makes ALL the difference. Those "same people" can create whatever they want but if it doesn't make management happy it ain't ever getting built. The bottom line is this - the JL is essentially an Italian vehicle and that abso-f'ing-lutely matters, a lot.

 

[Deleted User 38384]

Please know what you're talking about before inserting yourself into a conversation.

Put some thought into this before you embarrass yourself. We're not talking about camshafts and clutches here.

Brought back to dealer, they need to replace a camshaft.

...the vast majority of issues you are going to encounter with the JL can only be handled at a dealer.

 

[TheRaven]

(cute but pointless gifs)

You really have no idea what you're talking about...and you didn't even read the relevant posts.

You would be best served to quietly exit this particular conversation. Go ahead, we won't say anything.

 

[mwilk012]

You really have no idea what you're talking about...and you didn't even read the relevant posts.

You would be best served to quietly exit this particular conversation. Go ahead, we won't say anything.

He's right though, and also wrong. After replacing the camshaft you are supposed to recalibrate the VVT system.

In your area I see several shops that show the capability to do the level of work you are referring to.

 

[mwilk012]

The last major technical innovation to the Wrangler formula was the TJ's addition of Quadra-Link suspension replacing leaf springs. Since then, every design change has been to accommodate the core identity of a ladder frame, two stick axles, a removable roof, and all of the inherent compromises those entail - meaning 90% of the design carries over from model to model. Most of the key team of engineers have been around through three Wrangler generations and four corporate parents, and couldn't give a shit less who signs their checks. Ask any of them, and they'll sing about how many liberties they were given for the JL - compared to the parts-bin design that was slapped together for the JK during the final years of Daimler ownership.

But hey, I'm just an electrical engineer with 15+ years of automotive industry experience in controls systems and powertrain integration. Go ahead and tell me how smart people think.

CAN communication networks added in the JK model were a very serious change that most people (techs included) do not understand at all.

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