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Hydrogen engines in the future?

The Last Cowboy

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I’ve used to get a brush pile burn started. Kids, don’t do this at home.

I’ve since found that a road flare works much better.
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The Last Cowboy

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Gasoline has no other use. And that is a problem. A very significant amount of each barrel of crude refined, by default, is gasoline. If everything went electric in, hypothetically 5 years, then what to do with the glut? You can’t store all of that. Ship it to the 3rd world “developing nations”? They will just burn it in inefficient cars and power plants (since it will be so cheap), and pollute the atmosphere more. All the while laughing at is for going broke forcing and EV change.

The net reduction of pollutants wont be reduced, it will be expanded.
 

The Last Cowboy

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This is no longer correct. See my previous comments. You can make plastics, rubbers, etc. WITHOUT making gasoline or diesel. Direct crude cracking. Been doing it for 10ish years.
Why isn't this more publicized. My understanding of refining is now expanding. So how do they get around the benzines and other various volatile compounds?

What's your take on GTL refining?
 

Sidewalk

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I am not yet convinced that there is a solution, just multiple. Electricity is great because it is pretty simple, and we already have infrastructure for it. Hydrogen would need infrastructure, but also a great excuse to build nuke plants.

Unless/until we electrify rail, we will have diesel powered locomotives for a long time. But electrified rail and nuclear would do well there.

As long as we can't play nice with each other, the vast majority of all the military is going to be burning something in planes and ships/boats. Electric just isn't going to work, and a nuclear powered destroyer sounds terrifying.

I feel like we are repeating the early stages of the industrial revolution. Experimenting with different options, throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. Some people are weighting the scale a bit (like Edison did with DC current), but who knows what the outcome will be.
 

Bmeister

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Transporting and Storing H2 is very difficult. It's a tiny molecule and it migrates THROUGH the metal container or pipe that is trying to store it.
If you have a leak + a spark - you get a fire, but you can't see the fire. H2 burns with no color. Suprise - you just walked into a fire you can't see....
^This. That's the part that the media and leaders don't consider; they never analyze anything but run with a "next best thing" mentality. That said, I do like the idea of hydrogen being a fuel but it would have to be more of a JIT, localized-stations situation rather than large facility that distributes it.

Other comments reference the energy intensity for hydrolysis to make hydrogen. I'm going by recall here, but 1kg of hydrogen has the energy content of 1 US gallon of gasoline. To generate 1kg of hydrogen requires ~13.7 MJ (~3.8Kwh) to make that 1kg of hydrogen. That's a slow fill up so the power has to be ramped up to, say, 240kwh to generate 1kg/minute, still slower than a gas fillup.

Then, the fun part: if someone "fills" their tank with hydrogen they better start driving NOW else the tank will be empty....like a discharging battery...only faster. Jim, please fix/correct if I'm off the mark.
 

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Dusty Dude

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I am not yet convinced that there is a solution, just multiple. Electricity is great because it is pretty simple, and we already have infrastructure for it. Hydrogen would need infrastructure, but also a great excuse to build nuke plants.
The government is looking for energy solutions that they can easily tax. Notice how many municipalities uses CNG to run busses and garbage trucks, but CNG isn’t readily available to the public? Infrastructure has been in place for decades, but it’s use for transportation has been hampered by government intervention.

For example, in 2012/13 Dodge had a CNG only pickup using the 5.7L V8. I tried to buy one new with plans of ultimately using the CNG specific items in a car. I couldn’t buy it. Municipalities only…

At the time, a company (I forget the name) was working on a CNG home fueling station called “Phill” with a target starting price of $500. IIRC, the project was eventually abandoned.
 

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Transporting and Storing H2 is very difficult. It's a tiny molecule and it migrates THROUGH the metal container or pipe that is trying to store it.
If you have a leak + a spark - you get a fire, but you can't see the fire. H2 burns with no color. Suprise - you just walked into a fire you can't see.
The advantage to gasoline is it contains a lot of energy for a given mass and it is very portable. What other energy storage method would easily work in vehicles? Lithium batteries work in automobiles but not so well in airplanes, but they are hard to manufacture. To replace gasoline we need a new source that is portable and easy to generate. On the surface it seemed to me that Hydrogen could do that- current internal combustion engines can be modified to use it, it is easy to create if you have electricity, but storage is the problem. It is hard to get enough of it in an automobile to give reasonable range, and would be difficult in airplanes as well. What we need is a magic liquid that we can synthesize by inputting electricity and that will burn cleanly in an engine.
 

txj2go

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Ahh yes. The laws of thermodynamics rear their ugly little heads.
Sigh
I was really thinking in a bigger picture. As of today there is not substitute for liquid fuels for operating airplanes so if we run out of petroleum then we travel everywhere by ground transportation. It is yet to be seen if we can run all automobiles without petroleum. So is there an option other than battery power? We can make hydrogen now, we can run cars on it now. My father used to run his shop vehicles on butane, I know a large scale farm operation that runs their many irrigation machines from normal natural gas. They have converted gasoline engines and diesel engines to run on natural gas.
 

The Last Cowboy

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Very few politicians are experts at anything except getting elected and, hopefully for them, reelected. Oil and gas production and ICE engines are here for decades to come. When the unrealistic deadlines loom, they will be pushed back or dropped.

I was thinking earlier about all these regulatory agencies, some not even created by congress, not only make their own rules, but enforce them as well. The EPA was recently challenged in the Supreme Court and did not prevail.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/f...-emissions-from-power-plants-what-comes-next/

It should have been a warning shot over the bow of all the other regulatory agencies who operate under similar rules. I would expect to see more challenges to the authority of these self ruling bureaucratic entities.
 

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Very few politicians are experts at anything except getting elected and, hopefully for them, reelected. Oil and gas production and ICE engines are here for decades to come. When the unrealistic deadlines loom, they will be pushed back or dropped.

I was thinking earlier about all these regulatory agencies, some not even created by congress, not only make their own rules, but enforce them as well. The EPA was recently challenged in the Supreme Court and did not prevail.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/f...-emissions-from-power-plants-what-comes-next/

It should have been a warning shot over the bow of all the other regulatory agencies who operate under similar rules. I would expect to see more challenges to the authority of these self ruling bureaucratic entities.
Ahhh, yes, the wonderful Chevron deference. So glad to see it is finally being addressed and ripped out by its roots.
 

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Don't forget the massive weight problem these giant car batteries impose, an extreme example is the Hummer, its battery weighs as much as a Honda Civic! The whole hummer is over 9000 LBS! Think about the road and bridge infrastructure, can it handle all cars suddenly being a ton or more in weight? What about a parking garage filled with cars that all of the sudden each weigh a ton or more than they used too...Think about just the extra energy required just to move the battery alone down the road...something that 80 lbs of gas can do...
 

Zandcwhite

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The advantage to gasoline is it contains a lot of energy for a given mass and it is very portable. What other energy storage method would easily work in vehicles? Lithium batteries work in automobiles but not so well in airplanes, but they are hard to manufacture. To replace gasoline we need a new source that is portable and easy to generate. On the surface it seemed to me that Hydrogen could do that- current internal combustion engines can be modified to use it, it is easy to create if you have electricity, but storage is the problem. It is hard to get enough of it in an automobile to give reasonable range, and would be difficult in airplanes as well. What we need is a magic liquid that we can synthesize by inputting electricity and that will burn cleanly in an engine.
Internal combustion is inherently inefficient, using more of the stored energy to create heat than perform work. Electric motors on the other hand are super efficient. A better method of storing electricity is the future in my opinion. Light weight, solid state batteries with high capacity will solve this debate once and for all if they can get there.
 

Zandcwhite

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Don't forget the massive weight problem these giant car batteries impose, an extreme example is the Hummer, its battery weighs as much as a Honda Civic! The whole hummer is over 9000 LBS! Think about the road and bridge infrastructure, can it handle all cars suddenly being a ton or more in weight? What about a parking garage filled with cars that all of the sudden each weigh a ton or more than they used too...Think about just the extra energy required just to move the battery alone down the road...something that 80 lbs of gas can do...
In theory the energy density of solid state batteries will be 10 times current lithium cells. That's approximately 2200lbs shaved off that hummer battery for the same range or load it to the same current weight and have a 3300 mile range (I'm guessing it would be somewhere between the 2). I'm guessing within the next 10 years we see EVs that weigh closer to their current ICE counterparts AND have 750-1000 mile ranges.
 

Cutterone

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In theory the energy density of solid state batteries will be 10 times current lithium cells. That's approximately 2200lbs shaved off that hummer battery for the same range or load it to the same current weight and have a 3300 mile range (I'm guessing it would be somewhere between the 2). I'm guessing within the next 10 years we see EVs that weigh closer to their current ICE counterparts AND have 750-1000 mile ranges.
And I hope you're correct, but again these are "in theory", need to see it in reality. What substrates and minerals/elements are required of these solid state batteries? What abundance does the earth have of them? How much energy input is required for said energy output...??? Honestly asking I am not informed on the topic as of yet...
 

Zandcwhite

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And I hope you're correct, but again these are "in theory", need to see it in reality. What substrates and minerals/elements are required of these solid state batteries? What abundance does the earth have of them? How much energy input is required for said energy output...??? Honestly asking I am not informed on the topic as of yet...
I'm no expert, but the prototypes I've read about still use lithium, approximately 10-15 times less than current lithium ion cells. I don't think we are going to find the miracle fuel that has 0 limitations or drawbacks, but going from burning gas which is at best 20% efficient to electricity which is up to 90% efficient seems logically better however we get there to me.
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