Turtleback Expedition and JLU Towing Capacity?

[NCJL]

I do want to keep them safe and I appreciate your thoughts.
I am operating under the assumption that the stock wheels and tires require no spacers. Given that, how else would they put other wheels and tires with different tire widths and backspacing without a spacer? Seems to me like that’s the most effective way of accomplishing that, but I’m gonna admit I’m not an expert here. Same for changing the nut pattern.
As for safety, it seems like there are two camps: those who think spacers are inherently bad and those who don’t. I’ve read articles stating that they are fine, tho your point about the axle capability is valid. And for an unpowered axle are spacers less of a concern?

Wheel spacers/adapters are not DOT approved for a reason. You may not be an expert but you do understand the axle capability issue.
Trailer axles and tires take more/different abuse than a normal vehicle axles. I recommend a search on this. Trailer tires are manufactured to work specifically for trailers. Some think to make them cheaper. Do a search. I would recommend also reading thru Timbren website in regards to trailer axle. I knew nothing of Timbren until I started searching for a new ORT. I found that a lot of trailer manufacturers were using the Timbren set up. TurtleBack used it as the entry level suspension. That is one of the reasons I chose TB. I never wanted the upgraded ICON suspension. I plan to pull the TB on real 4x4 rated trails. The Timbren has way more ground clearance than any other suspension I’ve seen.
After purchasing the TB and going thru everything I’ve been talking about I was forced to learn a lot.
Timbren manufacturers 2 versions of the 3500lbs axle, one rated for pavement with a 6” backspace (RV style) and a HD version rated for the dirt with an 8” backspace. These 2 versions are available in a variety of bolt patterns to match whatever the customer needs.
After purchase is when I discovered TB does not use or install the HD off-road version from Timbren, just the RV style. I was shocked by this.
The owner of TB told me that they only use the RV style Timbren axle because the HD version is not available in a 5 lug.
It is only available in 6 and 8 lug versions.
I worked with Timbren on this issue. Highly recommended them. Wonderful to work with. Timbren confirmed what TB said. Timbren confirmed with me that a HD3500lbs is actually a 5200lbs rated axle that has been modified to work with larger off-road type tires for the off-road market. The good news is you get a larger spindle and brakes.
The Timbren 3500HD is what I installed with 6 lug bolt pattern. I don’t care if it matches the Jeep. Matching the tow vehicle bolt pattern with the trailer would only matter if you have the same exact wheels and tire size.
The Adventure Trailer I purchased about 20 years ago had a Dexter torsion axle. AT ordered those axles to match the build is what I understood. I had to give them wheels and tires before they would order the axle. They could order the axle in 2” increments to match the build.
The ICON suspension is manufactured by TB. They could build it with any WMS to not use wheels spacers or adapters. And provide a safer wider stance. The only thing ICON is the shock. I have communicated with ICON on this. They have no knowledge and refers all questions to TB. I tried to get TB to buy the ICON set up from me. TB offered me $800, that was their cost to build it. I sold it on this forum for $500. The TB ICON suspension by itself is good. It is just too narrow for the TB trailer in my opinion.
I only had to remove 8 maybe 10 3/8 bolts to completely remove the ICON suspension from the trailer frame.
Think about that last statement.
I’m so long winded!

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[NCJL]

Terrible is putting it mildly.
The overall trailer width is 72”. The frame width is 48”. The first suspension system installed had a WMS of 60”. Think that is a design issue.
The second suspension system had a WMS of 64”. TB told me when I asked if my OEM wheel and tire could be used “we do it all the time”
I’ve heard have not seen they also use wheel adapters. To help with matching different tow rigs. TB told me this.

Follow up for comparison. I just did some quick measurements on my JLURD.
Body width without flares is 60”
The frame width varies. I measured between the rear tires to be about 46”.
The axle WMS for all JL Rubicon’s is 68”.

 

[alksion]

I bought my first off-road trailer from Adventure Trailer the horizon model. I think it was the first trailer sold. They got it right. Don’t think they sell trailers anymore.
we pulled that trailer thru the Rubicon, Dusy Ersim and many other trails with 2 kids. We pulled it with an LJ.

Why aren’t they in business anymore? Better at building trailers than marketing?

 

[alksion]

Wheel spacers/adapters are not DOT approved for a reason. You may not be an expert but you do understand the axle capability issue.
Trailer axles and tires take more/different abuse than a normal vehicle axles. I recommend a search on this. Trailer tires are manufactured to work specifically for trailers. Some think to make them cheaper. Do a search. I would recommend also reading thru Timbren website in regards to trailer axle. I knew nothing of Timbren until I started searching for a new ORT. I found that a lot of trailer manufacturers were using the Timbren set up. TurtleBack used it as the entry level suspension. That is one of the reasons I chose TB. I never wanted the upgraded ICON suspension. I plan to pull the TB on real 4x4 rated trails. The Timbren has way more ground clearance than any other suspension I’ve seen.
After purchasing the TB and going thru everything I’ve been talking about I was forced to learn a lot.
Timbren manufacturers 2 versions of the 3500lbs axle, one rated for pavement with a 6” backspace (RV style) and a HD version rated for the dirt with an 8” backspace. These 2 versions are available in a variety of bolt patterns to match whatever the customer needs.
After purchase is when I discovered TB does not use or install the HD off-road version from Timbren, just the RV style. I was shocked by this.
The owner of TB told me that they only use the RV style Timbren axle because the HD version is not available in a 5 lug.
It is only available in 6 and 8 lug versions.
I worked with Timbren on this issue. Highly recommended them. Wonderful to work with. Timbren confirmed what TB said. Timbren confirmed with me that a HD3500lbs is actually a 5200lbs rated axle that has been modified to work with larger off-road type tires for the off-road market. The good news is you get a larger spindle and brakes.
The Timbren 3500HD is what I installed with 6 lug bolt pattern. I don’t care if it matches the Jeep. Matching the tow vehicle bolt pattern with the trailer would only matter if you have the same exact wheels and tire size.
The Adventure Trailer I purchased about 20 years ago had a Dexter torsion axle. AT ordered those axles to match the build is what I understood. I had to give them wheels and tires before they would order the axle. They could order the axle in 2” increments to match the build.
The ICON suspension is manufactured by TB. They could build it with any WMS to not use wheels spacers or adapters. And provide a safer wider stance. The only thing ICON is the shock. I have communicated with ICON on this. They have no knowledge and refers all questions to TB. I tried to get TB to buy the ICON set up from me. TB offered me $800, that was their cost to build it. I sold it on this forum for $500. The TB ICON suspension by itself is good. It is just too narrow for the TB trailer in my opinion.
I only had to remove 8 maybe 10 3/8 bolts to completely remove the ICON suspension from the trailer frame.
Think about that last statement.
I’m so long winded!

Lots of good info to digest. I went with the five lug pattern thus it sounds like I’m getting the RV axle. Hoping it’s less of an issue with the lighter Getaway trailer I ordered. Do you feel all your points still apply equally to the Getaway trailer as well?

 

[NCJL]

Lots of good info to digest. I went with the five lug pattern thus it sounds like I’m getting the RV axle. Hoping it’s less of an issue with the lighter Getaway trailer I ordered. Do you feel all your points still apply equally to the Getaway trailer as well?

I know nothing about the Getaway.
The RV style I mentioned only applies to the Timbren type. The ICON on my trailer was five lug using the smaller spindle and brake package that Timbren advertises as “for the trailer that won’t see the dirt. The ICON on my trailer had Dexter brakes and spindle.
I would recommend asking TB if the suspension are the same between the different models of trailer.
The 2 different suspension systems TB installed on my trailer used the same bolt on method mentioned before. They have a suspension frame that the suspension is mounted to. This suspension frame is then mounted to the trailer frame. Interchangeable between Expedition trailers. Not sure if the Getaway is the same.
I cannot imagine TB being able to build one trailer model different/better than another.

 

[NCJL]

Why aren’t they in business anymore? Better at building trailers than marketing?

I do not know. I searched for them first. I thought I found there website. Thinking they stopped with the trailers and did more of a slide in the bed of a truck type thing. I just tried to search again. Nothing found.
Yes.

 

[NCJL]

Lots of good info to digest. I went with the five lug pattern thus it sounds like I’m getting the RV axle. Hoping it’s less of an issue with the lighter Getaway trailer I ordered. Do you feel all your points still apply equally to the Getaway trailer as well?

I know nothing about the Getaway.
The RV style I mentioned only applies to the Timbren type. The ICON on my trailer was five lug using the smaller spindle and brake package that Timbren advertises as “for the trailer that won’t see the dirt. The ICON on my trailer had Dexter brakes and spindle.
I would recommend asking TB if the suspension are the same between the different models of trailer.
The 2 different suspension systems TB installed on my trailer used the same bolt on method mentioned before. They have a suspension frame that the suspension is mounted to. This suspension frame is then mounted to the trailer frame. Interchangeable between Expedition trailers. Not sure if the Getaway is the same.

 

[NCJL]

Lots of good info to digest. I went with the five lug pattern thus it sounds like I’m getting the RV axle. Hoping it’s less of an issue with the lighter Getaway trailer I ordered. Do you feel all your points still apply equally to the Getaway trailer as well?

Also. The Pic I posted showing the tire rub. The Timbren part # is shown.

 

[SuperNerdEE]

Wheel spacers/adapters are not DOT approved for a reason. You may not be an expert but you do understand the axle capability issue.
Trailer axles and tires take more/different abuse than a normal vehicle axles. I recommend a search on this. Trailer tires are manufactured to work specifically for trailers. Some think to make them cheaper. Do a search. I would recommend also reading thru Timbren website in regards to trailer axle. I knew nothing of Timbren until I started searching for a new ORT. I found that a lot of trailer manufacturers were using the Timbren set up. TurtleBack used it as the entry level suspension. That is one of the reasons I chose TB. I never wanted the upgraded ICON suspension. I plan to pull the TB on real 4x4 rated trails. The Timbren has way more ground clearance than any other suspension I’ve seen.
After purchasing the TB and going thru everything I’ve been talking about I was forced to learn a lot.
Timbren manufacturers 2 versions of the 3500lbs axle, one rated for pavement with a 6” backspace (RV style) and a HD version rated for the dirt with an 8” backspace. These 2 versions are available in a variety of bolt patterns to match whatever the customer needs.
After purchase is when I discovered TB does not use or install the HD off-road version from Timbren, just the RV style. I was shocked by this.
The owner of TB told me that they only use the RV style Timbren axle because the HD version is not available in a 5 lug.
It is only available in 6 and 8 lug versions.
I worked with Timbren on this issue. Highly recommended them. Wonderful to work with. Timbren confirmed what TB said. Timbren confirmed with me that a HD3500lbs is actually a 5200lbs rated axle that has been modified to work with larger off-road type tires for the off-road market. The good news is you get a larger spindle and brakes.
The Timbren 3500HD is what I installed with 6 lug bolt pattern. I don’t care if it matches the Jeep. Matching the tow vehicle bolt pattern with the trailer would only matter if you have the same exact wheels and tire size.
The Adventure Trailer I purchased about 20 years ago had a Dexter torsion axle. AT ordered those axles to match the build is what I understood. I had to give them wheels and tires before they would order the axle. They could order the axle in 2” increments to match the build.
The ICON suspension is manufactured by TB. They could build it with any WMS to not use wheels spacers or adapters. And provide a safer wider stance. The only thing ICON is the shock. I have communicated with ICON on this. They have no knowledge and refers all questions to TB. I tried to get TB to buy the ICON set up from me. TB offered me $800, that was their cost to build it. I sold it on this forum for $500. The TB ICON suspension by itself is good. It is just too narrow for the TB trailer in my opinion.
I only had to remove 8 maybe 10 3/8 bolts to completely remove the ICON suspension from the trailer frame.
Think about that last statement.
I’m so long winded!

I think it’s important to realize you are stating a matter of opinion as fact. You said “wheel spacers are not DOT approved.” That’s not true.
“In the United States, wheel spacers are not currently regulated under the Department of Transportation's current legislation. There are no existing federal laws that prohibit wheel spacers for on-road use.”

Perhaps you didn’t mean to imply that they are illegal, but saying they aren’t DOT approved is misleading. Some people really think they are unacceptable and you seem to be in that camp, others use them. In my opinion their use here makes a level of sense. Like I said, how else would you expect a trailer OEM to put any wheels/tires on in a sustainable business model? A custom axle/suspension for every build seems pretty excessive imo.

 

[NCJL]

Adventure Trailer thru the Rubicon. This is my wife with her LJ pulling the trailer.

 

[SuperNerdEE]

Adventure Trailer thru the Rubicon. This is my wife with her LJ pulling the trailer.

That looks fun!

 

[NCJL]

I think it’s important to realize you are stating a matter of opinion as fact. You said “wheel spacers are not DOT approved.” That’s not true.
“In the United States, wheel spacers are not currently regulated under the Department of Transportation's current legislation. There are no existing federal laws that prohibit wheel spacers for on-road use.”

Perhaps you didn’t mean to imply that they are illegal, but saying they aren’t DOT approved is misleading. Some people really think they are unacceptable and you seem to be in that camp, others use them. In my opinion their use here makes a level of sense. Like I said, how else would you expect a trailer OEM to put any wheels/tires on in a sustainable business model? A custom axle/suspension for every build seems pretty excessive imo.

I actually said “not DOT approved for a reason”. I do not wish to imply anything. I’m only sharing my TB purchase experience with others.
I asked TB to provide certification for using wheel spacers on my trailer suspension. I asked that this certification also include in writing something from Timbren stating that the use of wheel spacers on their suspension would not reduce the load carrying capacity. TB did not provide any certification. TB only said this is what we do all the time. TB offered to upgrade my suspension system to their ICON version for free. All I had to do was drive back to their facility, 600 miles away. To make the return trip I had to purchase new wheels and tires to keep the tires from rubbing. I did this.
Once I returned home I tried to install my OEM JL wheel and tire combo on the new ICON suspension. TB told me this would work without the use of spacers. It did not. The ICON suspension was 64” wide. The first suspension was 60” without spacers. I still needed spacers to use the OEM wheels.
I purchased a off the shelf Timbren 3500HD suspension. The cost was about $800. Installed it per Timbren instructions and it worked. To install per the instructions the TB frame needed structural reinforcement added. This was an additional cost.
Due to lug pattern changes I purchased another set of wheels for the trailer. The Timbren 3500HD installed per manufacturer instructions on my TB trailer is 67” wide.
I just asked asked TB to provide certification/verify that using wheel spacers in combination with the suspension they installed meet all required DOT/federal safety issues and also did not change the weight rating.
All of this was done over the phone with the owner of TB the first week of ownership. Due to other issues with the trailer the communication evolved to included emails and texting.
Just thought of something else. I wonder if a wheel manufacturer should also be included in this discussion.

Edit. Before picking up the trailer I sent, via email, the Mopar wheel specifications to TB at their request.

 

[SuperNerdEE]

I actually said “not DOT approved for a reason”. I do not wish to imply anything. I’m only sharing my TB purchase experience with others.
I asked TB to provide certification for using wheel spacers on my trailer suspension. I asked that this certification also include in writing something from Timbren stating that the use of wheel spacers on their suspension would not reduce the load carrying capacity. TB did not provide any certification. TB only said this is what we do all the time. TB offered to upgrade my suspension system to their ICON version for free. All I had to do was drive back to their facility, 600 miles away. To make the return trip I had to purchase new wheels and tires to keep the tires from rubbing. I did this.
Once I returned home I tried to install my OEM JL wheel and tire combo on the new ICON suspension. TB told me this would work without the use of spacers. It did not. The ICON suspension was 64” wide. The first suspension was 60” without spacers. I still needed spacers to use the OEM wheels.
I purchased a off the shelf Timbren 3500HD suspension. The cost was about $800. Installed it per Timbren instructions and it worked. To install per the instructions the TB frame needed structural reinforcement added. This was an additional cost.
Due to lug pattern changes I purchased another set of wheels for the trailer. The Timbren 3500HD installed per manufacturer instructions on my TB trailer is 67” wide.
I just asked asked TB to provide certification/verify that using wheel spacers in combination with the suspension they installed meet all required DOT/federal safety issues and also did not change the weight rating.
All of this was done over the phone with the owner of TB the first week of ownership. Due to other issues with the trailer the communication evolved to included emails and texting.
Just thought of something else. I wonder if a wheel manufacturer should also be included in this discussion.

Since you ended up going with Timbren in the end, did you ever ask them for their opinion on spacers? Just curious.

 

[NCJL]

Since you ended up going with Timbren in the end, did you ever ask them for their opinion on spacers? Just curious.

Yes and others. The general answers were we don’t recommend any alteration to the product. We do not test our product with spacers. If the instructions don’t show a wheel spacers it is not approved. That sort of thing.
Timbren was the only one that went further to explain that they had a solution by using the 3500HD.
I said in other post. I did not know of Timbren until I started researching trailers. This is true. The experience with Timbren has been first class. I would put them up there with my AEV experiences. Top notch.
After learning all I did about trailer suspension. I talked with the owner of TB, basically saying that only an idiot would not use Timbren as a major resource for trailer suspension. They do all the work for you.

 

[NCJL]

I think it’s important to realize you are stating a matter of opinion as fact. You said “wheel spacers are not DOT approved.” That’s not true.
“In the United States, wheel spacers are not currently regulated under the Department of Transportation's current legislation. There are no existing federal laws that prohibit wheel spacers for on-road use.”

Perhaps you didn’t mean to imply that they are illegal, but saying they aren’t DOT approved is misleading. Some people really think they are unacceptable and you seem to be in that camp, others use them. In my opinion their use here makes a level of sense. Like I said, how else would you expect a trailer OEM to put any wheels/tires on in a sustainable business model? A custom axle/suspension for every build seems pretty excessive imo.

Follow up to me previous reply to this. I’m not experienced in the manufacturing of trailers. I’m not a lawyer in any way. I do have 20 plus years of Offroad experience and 30 plus years of pulling trailers.
What has been expressed to me thru the years is this. Wheel spacers create a weak link in the system. They lower the load carrying capacity of what they are attached too.
As for being DOT compliant/approved. The Metal Fabricator shop, mentioned in previous posts, told me this. Summarizing, Wheel spacers are illegal because they are not recognized by the wheel hub manufacturer. All rules and regulations regarding being a manufacturer of the trailer requires the builder to follow all the installation instructions of the components installed on the trailer.
The metal fabrication shop builds one off custom trailers, repairs trailers and modifies trailers among other things. They did not provide me with any DOT specific rules regarding wheel spacers.
This same shop is the one that showed me NHSTA rules regarding trailer weight and how to figure. This I actually read. It was 49 CFR . ? I shared this info with TB. I hoped TB would correct what I was learning. Maybe TB was building the trailer under exceptions/exclusions to what I was shown/read. Once again TB had no reply other than “that is the way we’ve been doing it. I just bought the company I’ll look into that”.
To address the how to sustain a business model in regard to all the different wheel and tire combinations. As previously mentioned, in other post's, the Timbren 3500HD will solve most of these problems, if not all. An additional option is to manufacturer the ICON in different WMS widths or just one that works for all, like 67”.
The Timbren 3500HD option would actually save money and weight on the trailer build. The ICON option would only cost dollars more.
Just my ideas and thoughts.
I actually offered to return to the TB shop, at my expense, to offer free help and support in regard to improving the trailer build. Once again no reply.

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