Next Wrangler J70 - no ICE only option! To be sold only as Hybrid PHEV and EV

[AcesandEights]

At most? You aren't getting 300 miles in 20 minutes on a Level 2 Charger connected to a 220V outlet.

Also, that isn't the infrastructure problem - the problem is that if everyone installs a Level 2 charger in their home, their isn't enough power in the grid to supply them (and solar/wind isn't going to get us there).

We haven't built a new nuclear plant in the US in three decades, and while 39 reactors have been permanently shut down, with licenses for another 22 reactors due to expire before 2030, only eight new reactors have come online since 1990 - and 6 of those were delayed projects form the 1970s (the other two came online in the last nine months in Georgia).

We simply don't have the generating capacity to do what the wacko politicians want. This year's election will determine if we return to reasonableness (and get another ICE Wrangler), or continue to march toward a self-made energy crisis.

+1

In some areas, maybe everyone's, the power companies are having meetings with local officials and interested parties. These meetings/town halls are an opportunity for the power companies to discuss future needs (both consumer, and infrastructure). It's interesting, as someone that has put one of these meetings together, that the message is there is no way to provide the amount of power necessary for the consumer products, whether those be smart homes, EV, or the industrial needs in and around cities. Power is going to be more strictly regulated and more expensive. Brownouts and blackouts are going to be the norm, and no that's not "the sky is falling" rhetoric. It's part of the plan to provide power when and where it is most needed.

If you're not listening, look to your local/regional power provider to see if they are doing any messaging. Many of those companies are. It's pretty clear, the industrial and private/consumer needs outpace the ability to provide power.

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[Dusty Dude]

Do you really want our government building its own network of charging stations?

Absolutely NOT! 3X cost and will work as well as a McDonald’s ice cream machine.

 

[AcesandEights]

mmm, ? ice cream

 

[jimcoffey62]

Do you really want our government building its own network of charging stations?

Actually yeah. If we were serious about energy we would take the proven nuclear reactors from the navy, and install one on every Army and Airforce base in the country. We've got a base in every state (thank your congressman). Then hook it up to the grid and provide almost free power.

The advantage of putting the reactors on an army base include:
- it's federal land. local and state law doesn't apply.
- security is already built in.
- no permits needed. If the army decides to put a small nuke at Ft Hood, they can do it as a black project and they really don't need to ask permission. Hey - we are going to give free power - who wants some ...

Note: a version of this was drawn up by the Navy as part of their Y2K planning. If all the power grids went down they had plans to put Nuke ships at the major cities and tie them into the grid. This would allow enough power for minimal basic services to hospitals, street lights, police, fire, etc. Enough to keep civil unrest to a minimum while you fix the rest of the grid.

If you take a tour of the USS Lexington in Corpus Christi you'll notice some "extension cords" that are 6 inches in diameter (3 wires, each 1 inch dia copper) and can carry 3phase 480V to bypass damaged areas during battle.

 

[Dusty Dude]

+1

In some areas, maybe everyone's, the power companies are having meetings with local officials and interested parties. These meetings/town halls are an opportunity for the power companies to discuss future needs (both consumer, and infrastructure). It's interesting, as someone that has put one of these meetings together, that the message is there is no way to provide the amount of power necessary for the consumer products, whether those be smart homes, EV, or the industrial needs in and around cities. Power is going to be more strictly regulated and more expensive. Brownouts and blackouts are going to be the norm, and no that's not "the sky is falling" rhetoric. It's part of the plan to provide power when and where it is most needed.

If you're not listening, look to your local/regional power provider to see if they are doing any messaging. Many of those companies are. It's pretty clear, the industrial and private/consumer needs outpace the ability to provide power.

The last 10 years that I worked in Chicago, anytime the summer temperatures were above 85 degrees, the power companies would pay our TV station to go “off grid” by using our backup generator. The Hancock building and Sears tower also would use their generators occasionally. I’m sure there were other places scattered throughout the city too.

 

[Ratbert]

@Ratbert - agree 100%

We currently purchase these big heavy multipurpose vehicles that are like a swiss army knife. Truck, Rock crawler, Soccer mom hauler, daily driver, etc.

Why not separate the functions and only use what you need.
- battery operated front half - passenger compartment with 4 wheels.
- put the ICE in a trailer. Attach and use it only when needed.

For NON 4wd - I need to get to work, drive to starbucks, church, grocery store. Sometimes I need to buy lumber. Most of the time I drive less than 20 miles in a day. I could have a small battery operated car/suv with a trailer hitch, and a separate trailer that has a gas or diesel generator and a small truck bed for hauling stuff. Similar to how a construction job site pickup will sometimes use 1/2 the bed for a generator. I only hook up the trailer to haul stuff or for long haul trips where I now have what is essentially a hybrid car. I've just put the ICE engine on a trailer. Saves weight and space when running on battery only.

Note: Taking a trailer up the rubicon trail is probably not gonna work. So for stuff like that a hybrid jeep is a good vehicle.

But for boondocking, camping, if my rock crawling adventures are all within battery range of base camp. I could have a fully electric jeep and tow the generator/trailer/truck bed/base camp. For long trips you have the generator running and charging the batteries as you drive. And at home you can run pure electric mode for your normal weekend days where you never drive more than 40 miles (or whatever the range is).

The new Ford hybrid truck that can tow an RV trailer is a reverse version of this. The truck has the ICE and a big battery. The battery is large enough to run the AC in texas in the summer and all the things needed in the RV. The trucks energy management system will start the engine periodically during the night to top off the battery. Instead of a big motorhome - he has a 2 piece system.

thoughts?

It seems like a standard REPB approach (onboard ICE) might make more sense. No need to manage / keep track of / park a generator trailer while also still being able to tow. Pulling something around like that in extreme weather might also be an issue.

 

[2nd 392]

The last 10 years that I worked in Chicago, anytime the summer temperatures were above 85 degrees, the power companies would pay our TV station to go “off grid” by using our backup generator. The Hancock building and Sears tower also would use their generators occasionally. I’m sure there were other places scattered throughout the city too.

Cost me ~ $62K - the ~ $14K bribe, uh rebate, err tax credit, incentive ? for off grid capable solar because Pacific Gas & Electric can’t reliably keep the power on now. No power = no water with a well.
But my last bill was “no payment due” and it runs ~ $10 per month …. 100+ summer on the way so ?, but it won’t be ~ $7/800 a month and could pay for itself eventually.
Should I live so long.

 

[THAW]

Question- some states have impending ICE bans, typically 2035- how is an REPB electric vehicle that carries it’s own charging generator classified ? Possible consideration ?

From CARB: "Zero-emission vehicles (ZEV), in the context of the Zero-emission Vehicle regulation, include battery electric vehicles, plug-in hybrid electric vehicles, and fuel cell electric vehicles." (https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/do...cks-are-going-zero-frequently-asked-questions)

So it's unclear if REPB sales will be allowed, but roughly interpreted they would have to plug-in charge.

Also from CARB: "Even after 2035, gasoline cars can still be driven in California, registered with the California Department of Motor Vehicles, and sold as a used car to a new owner."

So, starting 2035 buy new ICE in Arizona or one of the other 30 non-CARB states.

 

[Ratbert]

So it's unclear if REPB sales will be allowed, but roughly interpreted they would have to plug-in charge.

Supposedly you can plug the Ramcharger into a charging network, so theoretically our REPB implementation will be plug-in too.

 

[Zandcwhite]

@Ratbert - agree 100%

We currently purchase these big heavy multipurpose vehicles that are like a swiss army knife. Truck, Rock crawler, Soccer mom hauler, daily driver, etc.

Why not separate the functions and only use what you need.
- battery operated front half - passenger compartment with 4 wheels.
- put the ICE in a trailer. Attach and use it only when needed.

For NON 4wd - I need to get to work, drive to starbucks, church, grocery store. Sometimes I need to buy lumber. Most of the time I drive less than 20 miles in a day. I could have a small battery operated car/suv with a trailer hitch, and a separate trailer that has a gas or diesel generator and a small truck bed for hauling stuff. Similar to how a construction job site pickup will sometimes use 1/2 the bed for a generator. I only hook up the trailer to haul stuff or for long haul trips where I now have what is essentially a hybrid car. I've just put the ICE engine on a trailer. Saves weight and space when running on battery only.

Note: Taking a trailer up the rubicon trail is probably not gonna work. So for stuff like that a hybrid jeep is a good vehicle.

But for boondocking, camping, if my rock crawling adventures are all within battery range of base camp. I could have a fully electric jeep and tow the generator/trailer/truck bed/base camp. For long trips you have the generator running and charging the batteries as you drive. And at home you can run pure electric mode for your normal weekend days where you never drive more than 40 miles (or whatever the range is).

The new Ford hybrid truck that can tow an RV trailer is a reverse version of this. The truck has the ICE and a big battery. The battery is large enough to run the AC in texas in the summer and all the things needed in the RV. The trucks energy management system will start the engine periodically during the night to top off the battery. Instead of a big motorhome - he has a 2 piece system.

thoughts?

I like the charge trailer idea IF the full EV wrangler sans trailer has a 200+ mile range like pretty much every modern EV. Perfect for those long trips, getting you to the trail head with a full charge, etc and you don't have to haul the ICE engine, fuel, etc. 200 miles of range with a charge while you drive trailer is more than enough for even the toughest trails. The rubicon is only 18 miles. Dusy Erishim is only 33 miles. Even the mojave road is only 100 miles and it's plenty tame enough to run it with the trailer. You could crawl all day in moab and not cover 100 miles.

 

[Ratbert]

I like the charge trailer idea IF the full EV wrangler sans trailer has a 200+ mile range like pretty much every modern EV. Perfect for those long trips, getting you to the trail head with a full charge, etc and you don't have to haul the ICE engine, fuel, etc. 200 miles of range with a charge while you drive trailer is more than enough for even the toughest trails. The rubicon is only 18 miles. Dusy Erishim is only 33 miles. Even the mojave road is only 100 miles and it's plenty tame enough to run it with the trailer. You could crawl all day in moab and not cover 100 miles.

I'm not sure rock crawling miles are comparable to on road miles. Didn't TFL get something like 3 miles out of their 4xe on the trail?

 

[Zandcwhite]

I'm not sure rock crawling miles are comparable to on road miles. Didn't TFL get something like 3 miles out of their 4xe on the trail?

Rock crawling miles aren't equal to road miles in an ICE vehicle either. If you watch that video it seems like they were trying to drain the battery as quick as possible and it's a 4xe which is the whole reason I'm against the hybrid idea. It's the most inefficient way to power a vehicle with 2 drivetrains. Trail recon got ~13 miles in his under similar conditions which is in line with the testing I've seen of actual EVs off road like the rivian. No you wouldn't get 200 miles of it had a 200 mile road range, but 100 is very likely the reality which is enough to run the Rubicon 5 times. Add the fact that even current battery tech has the rivians road range pushing 400 miles and in my opinion the range fears are misinformation or ignorance at best. By the time a production EV wrangler exists in guessing 500 mile range will be available. 250 rock crawling miles is more than most will do in a year and likely 2 tanks of gas in the JLUR.

 

[2nd 392]

From CARB: "Zero-emission vehicles (ZEV), in the context of the Zero-emission Vehicle regulation, include battery electric vehicles, plug-in hybrid electric vehicles, and fuel cell electric vehicles." (https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/do...cks-are-going-zero-frequently-asked-questions)

So it's unclear if REPB sales will be allowed, but roughly interpreted they would have to plug-in charge.

Also from CARB: "Even after 2035, gasoline cars can still be driven in California, registered with the California Department of Motor Vehicles, and sold as a used car to a new owner."

So, starting 2035 buy new ICE in Nevada or one of the other 30 non-CARB states.

Regrettably Nevada is one of the 3 states that joined CARB for 24. Duck Duck Go has been down all day and I can’t recall the other 2. Idaho is now the closest non Carb to me….. the only hybrid I’m interested in is the LC1958 and it’s not PHEV for now… not interested until the new high performance SS batteries ~30 per Toyota anyway.

 

[OrneryBear]

@Ratbert - agree 100%

We currently purchase these big heavy multipurpose vehicles that are like a swiss army knife. Truck, Rock crawler, Soccer mom hauler, daily driver, etc.

Why not separate the functions and only use what you need.
- battery operated front half - passenger compartment with 4 wheels.
- put the ICE in a trailer. Attach and use it only when needed.

For NON 4wd - I need to get to work, drive to starbucks, church, grocery store. Sometimes I need to buy lumber. Most of the time I drive less than 20 miles in a day. I could have a small battery operated car/suv with a trailer hitch, and a separate trailer that has a gas or diesel generator and a small truck bed for hauling stuff. Similar to how a construction job site pickup will sometimes use 1/2 the bed for a generator. I only hook up the trailer to haul stuff or for long haul trips where I now have what is essentially a hybrid car. I've just put the ICE engine on a trailer. Saves weight and space when running on battery only.

Note: Taking a trailer up the rubicon trail is probably not gonna work. So for stuff like that a hybrid jeep is a good vehicle.

But for boondocking, camping, if my rock crawling adventures are all within battery range of base camp. I could have a fully electric jeep and tow the generator/trailer/truck bed/base camp. For long trips you have the generator running and charging the batteries as you drive. And at home you can run pure electric mode for your normal weekend days where you never drive more than 40 miles (or whatever the range is).

The new Ford hybrid truck that can tow an RV trailer is a reverse version of this. The truck has the ICE and a big battery. The battery is large enough to run the AC in texas in the summer and all the things needed in the RV. The trucks energy management system will start the engine periodically during the night to top off the battery. Instead of a big motorhome - he has a 2 piece system.

thoughts?

If this were the 50s/60s and one of the big three was designing an electric vehicle, I could see them trying to do something like what you're proposing. People both in and outside the auto industry were more open minded then to creative out of the box ideas when it came to cars.

These days, that would never make it to a concept prototype. Hell these days that idea would be shot down the moment it was proposed. Not a crossover (HAHA). Too modular and too big of a hassle. Low adoption rate. etc etc. For a swiss army knife vehicle, it's got to be convenient, hell any vehicle it needs to be convenient. Hooking up/storing a trailer is just not that.

Especially since having a generator on a trailer is now preventing you from hooking up a camper or utility trailer. Tough luck, can't go pick up that motorcycle you found for sale 3 miles away. Can't take the camper and family camping, gotta tow the ICE.

That's not to mention this idea is already a joke among the anti EV crowd of something like a ford lightning towing a big generator to keep it going.

I like where your head is at, I do, but it's not the elegant solution that appeals to automakers and consumers. Your example of the ford hybrid truck acting the power station for the RV is a much more elegant and attractive example of a symbiotic relationship between tow vehicle and trailer, when it comes to talking hybrids and battery power.

 

[Tncdrew]

Hopefully you're aware that J70 (as reported) will include an ICE-based REPB.

A 3.6L bolted to a generator, a 100-200kW battery, and 2 electric drive axles.... all built, and serviced? by Stellantis? Ha! BRILLIANT!!
When you step back, rub your eyes, and think about the complexity of that over just a conventional ICE driven vehicle, you realize how silly that sounds ?
Thanks, but no.

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