Manual Transmission - Issues shifting into 1st & Reverse (Compilation thread)

[SadRobot]

And even so you’d be stuck in gear when starting? That’s odd.

I threw in the towel on ACT when I started the engine, let go of the brake, then started rolling with the clutch pedal buried in the floor. Almost hit my garage wall, and that was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

Well now I'm trying to picture what I do when I start the Jeep. I think I always start it in neutral.

Last time I drove it 2 weeks ago I went to parallel park so I put it in reverse, backed up and then tried to get it out of reverse and into 1st to pull forward and it was sort of locked into reverse. I did eventually get it back into neutral but I did have a bit of ptsd of getting stuck on that obstacle in Texas.

My big fear is I put another 3k into an axle to get it back on the road and then the clutch starts getting lockout again.

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[AVGeek99]

No.

By lowering your ratio in difs, you are inherently reducing load on all the components before the difs (engine > trans > tc > dif > axle shaft > wheel).

Further more, the load on clutch will always be a factor of 2 things: engine force and and resistance force. These two will be proportional UP TO the power limit of the engine. In other words, regardless of everything else, it will come down to a single question of "can the clutch handle power output of the engine?". If yes, everything else is irrelevant and not applicable.

I don't know how much your set up (4.88s on 37s ) deviates from the stock, it is very likely that 4.88 with 37's is just a numerically higher 4.1 with 33's. You increased resistance with larger tire size, and compensated for it with lower dif ratio, that is it. So i will not criticize that, but understand that your upgrade HIGHLY LIKELY plays no role here.

And lastly, one simply factor that nearly completely nullifies your assumption - before release of the clutch and the shift, you (I HOPE) release the throttle pedal. Release of throttle equals what? And that what causes what? And if there is no what, then what? Exactly.

Thank you for the detailed response. What you say makes perfect sense. When you increase the tire size it makes the engine work harder and I'm guessing that also translates to more stress on the transmission. Which is why you regear, to lighten the load on the engine/transmission, making the gearing do the extra work. I wasn't thinking about it that way when I asked my question.

And that's all it was, a question. I wasn't suggesting larger tires and lower diff ratios were a contributing factor, I was simply asking could they. But after your explanation, I agree there is very little likelihood that they play a role in the issues.

For a drive ratio, 4.88s on 37s are virtually identical to stock 4.10s on 33s. So with my set up the engine and transmission would barely know the difference.

And of course I let off the gas when I shift, thereby removing any stress from the driveline on the clutch. Again, wasn't thinking about it that way, but now that I read your response it makes perfect sense.

 

[AVGeek99]

Oh, for you guys who experience lock out. I’m remembering from when I had ACT that lockout almost only ever happened when I’d stop the engine while in gear. If you get in the habit of shutting down engine in neutral I think you’ll find it happens less frequently. (Just putting gear after engine is off.)

Are you saying idle in neutral at a light and it worked better? This was not my experience, though I had the CFII.

I did find that when coming to a stop light, if I just pushed the clutch in prior to stopping and held it in I had no problems shifting to any gear. But then as soon as I started accelerating again the notchyness in 2nd, 3rd, and 5th would still be there. And also, holding the clutch in for more than 10 seconds at a time got real old real quick.

 

[OldGuyNewJeep]

Are you saying idle in neutral at a light and it worked better?

No, I’m saying if you pull into garage or parking space in gear and kill the engine there’s a higher likelihood of finding yourself stuck in 1st when you come back and leave. Pull in, neutral, kill engine, put in gear reduced the lockouts I was having with ACT.

The difficulty getting into 1st from a stop (idling in neutral) is a problem for me even with the CFII and custom hydraulics. A bit annoying, but I’ve developed muscle memory for my workaround.

 

[gek]

No, I’m saying if you pull into garage or parking space in gear and kill the engine there’s a higher likelihood of finding yourself stuck in 1st when you come back and leave. Pull in, neutral, kill engine, put in gear reduced the lockouts I was having with ACT.

The difficulty getting into 1st from a stop (idling in neutral) is a problem for me even with the CFII and custom hydraulics. A bit annoying, but I’ve developed muscle memory for my workaround.

I don't know that I ever turned the engine off in gear, other than stalling it. But it was instantly put in neutral after. And I learned long ago, not to start it in gear.

Wonder if that is why I didn't get any issues for 15-16k after install.

 

[AVGeek99]

No, I’m saying if you pull into garage or parking space in gear and kill the engine there’s a higher likelihood of finding yourself stuck in 1st when you come back and leave. Pull in, neutral, kill engine, put in gear reduced the lockouts I was having with ACT.

The difficulty getting into 1st from a stop (idling in neutral) is a problem for me even with the CFII and custom hydraulics. A bit annoying, but I’ve developed muscle memory for my workaround.

I get you now. I never tried that. Towards the end I would pull it into neutral prior to starting, in order to prevent being locked in 1st/rev on start up.

If my issues were limited to getting it into 1st gear at a light, I probably could have lived with that and still have mine. But I couldn't deal with the notchyness of shifting 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, and 4th to 5th. In order to make those gear changes while accellerating I had to shift very slowly, consciously pausing about a half second after pulling it out of gear before putting it into the next gear. It took all the fun out of driving a manual.

I had the CFII but with the normal hydraulics.

 

[Duece McCracken]

I get you now. I never tried that. Towards the end I would pull it into neutral prior to starting, in order to prevent being locked in 1st/rev on start up.

If my issues were limited to getting it into 1st gear at a light, I probably could have lived with that and still have mine. But I couldn't deal with the notchyness of shifting 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, and 4th to 5th. In order to make those gear changes while accellerating I had to shift very slowly, consciously pausing about a half second after pulling it out of gear before putting it into the next gear. It took all the fun out of driving a manual.

I had the CFII but with the normal hydraulics.

Yeah, he's on the same page as me.

I park in neutral hand brake only.

At stops/lights, i downshift decel, keep it in first at the stop/light with clutch depressed. Never locked out, and ready to rock.


Incoming rant!!!

Some people are going to immediately jump and say " but you'll cause premature throwout bearing failure clutching in at stops!!!" Which I laugh. 30 cars, 20 of which manual, never had a TB fail before a clutch. It's very similar to the "never run your fuel tank past 1/4, you'll burn out the in tank fuel pump! Never smoked a fuel pump either. Oh, and I've been a member of a dozen ish forums over the years too. Its not a trend with any car I've been interested in 1990 or newer.

I do get gear lock IN if the rear diff has a load and im in Reverse. Gotta fiddle, rub, and manhandle it out of R at that point.

 

[OminousSkitter]

Well overnight my Jeep just went from annoying to drive to afraid to drive. A lot of the tricks like when stopped, shift to second before first quit working today, and I wasn't sure I could even drive it home. R, 1, 2, 3 all locked out at multiple stoplights and often locked out while moving. So, I've scheduled to have the recall done

The shop said they replace clutches (in general across all brands and models) every 1-2 weeks, and they are fine that I've regeared and have an aftermarket clutch already installed. I figured it can't get much worse than it already is.

 

[AVGeek99]

Well overnight my Jeep just went from annoying to drive to afraid to drive. A lot of the tricks like when stopped, shift to second before first quit working today, and I wasn't sure I could even drive it home. R, 1, 2, 3 all locked out at multiple stoplights and often locked out while moving. So, I've scheduled to have the recall done

The shop said they replace clutches (in general across all brands and models) every 1-2 weeks, and they are fine that I've regeared and have an aftermarket clutch already installed. I figured it can't get much worse than it already is.

Not sure if they've "improved" the software update that goes along with the recall, but since you've regeared (and larger tires?) the best way to avoid the dreaded "Service Transmission" error is to reset the computer back to stock. Then immediately after the shop has installed the new clutch and prior to starting it they should have you come in and reprogram the diff gearing (and tire size). On JScan there is also a new clutch reset that is best to complete.

When I had the recall completed on mine I gave the service writer those exact instructions, to call me before starting it. Then 2 or 3 days go by with minimal updates. Finally I called the service manager and asked what was going on. He said, "there's this error that we can't seem to get rid of". I was furious. I went straight in and reprogrammed it and then all was fine. It shifted smooth as butter when I got it back.

So the recall should at least get you back to what it was like with the original OEM clutch, at least from a shifting perspective. I sold mine back to the same dealer within 24 hours so I didn't get any chance to really test it out. But in the 30-40 miles I drove it, it shifted like it was brand new.

I wish you luck!!

 

[OminousSkitter]

Not sure if they've "improved" the software update that goes along with the recall, but since you've regeared (and larger tires?) the best way to avoid the dreaded "Service Transmission" error is to reset the computer back to stock. Then immediately after the shop has installed the new clutch and prior to starting it they should have you come in and reprogram the diff gearing (and tire size). On JScan there is also a new clutch reset that is best to complete.

When I had the recall completed on mine I gave the service writer those exact instructions, to call me before starting it. Then 2 or 3 days go by with minimal updates. Finally I called the service manager and asked what was going on. He said, "there's this error that we can't seem to get rid of". I was furious. I went straight in and reprogrammed it and then all was fine. It shifted smooth as butter when I got it back.

So the recall should at least get you back to what it was like with the original OEM clutch, at least from a shifting perspective. I sold mine back to the same dealer within 24 hours so I didn't get any chance to really test it out. But in the 30-40 miles I drove it, it shifted like it was brand new.

I wish you luck!!

Thanks.

They already said they’d call me before they start it to have me program it because the software is too temperamental and they can’t program the gear change themselves. I’m guessing they’ve gone through that before. I use JScan; are you saying I need to revert everything back to factory settings before they flash the new software?

 

[AVGeek99]

Thanks.

They already said they’d call me before they start it to have me program it because the software is too temperamental and they can’t program the gear change themselves. I’m guessing they’ve gone through that before. I use JScan; are you saying I need to revert everything back to factory settings before they flash the new software?

My understanding is the software update is based on the OEM config for your VIN, so it would be best to revert diff gearing and tire size settings to original stock settings. Then prior to starting after the recall is complete go back in and reapply the correct gearing and tire size AND complete the "Clutch Replacement EEPPROM Reset Procedure" in JScan.

When I had the recall done on mine, I reset the settings to stock. When they completed the recall the tech did not call me to come reprogram the computer, like I had told the service writer to do. So when they started it and test drove it, they did get the "Service Transmission" error. They didn't know how to clear it.

Finally, a couple days later I got the service manager to explain what was happening. I drove down to the dealer, reapplied the correct gearing and tire size and completed the "Clutch Replacement EEPPROM Reset Procedure". And then the error went away immediately.

So is it an absolute requirement that you reset to stock? I can't say for sure. The computer is extremely configurable, it would be a lot of work to create an update for each configuration. The software update is written and tested with stock configurations. So to be safe it is best to have your Jeep set to it's stock configuration when the update is applied. As touchy as this update seems to be, I think it only makes logical sense to reset it. It's easy to do, you may as well.

Instructions for completing the "Clutch Replacement EEPPROM Reset Procedure" can be found here. I had trouble finding it in JScan so I just searched for it and it came right up. Good luck!!

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...sue-resolution-confusion.151687/#post-3140100

 

[andrei]

So is it an absolute requirement that you reset to stock? I can't say for sure. The computer is extremely configurable, it would be a lot of work to create an update for each configuration. The software update is written and tested with stock configurations. So to be safe it is best to have your Jeep set to it's stock configuration when the update is applied. As touchy as this update seems to be, I think it only makes logical sense to reset it. It's easy to do, you may as well.

Instructions for completing the "Clutch Replacement EEPPROM Reset Procedure" can be found here. I had trouble finding it in JScan so I just searched for it and it came right up. Good luck!!

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...sue-resolution-confusion.151687/#post-3140100

Mmmm i have doubts on that one.
To begin with, what is stock? You said it yourself " it would be a lot of work to create an update for each configuration". There are also replacement PCMs that have never been married to a vehicle. And i can only imagine what a disaster it will be when JL enters secondary market as a 15+ year old vehicle after multiple owners.

Unless code is written by 1st semester freshman in medical science, that is not how codes are written. For what you say to be true, there have to be 2 constant (unchangable) variables (your veh parameters) coded into a program, that represent the same value, and only one of them is allowed to be changed by you and other only by manufacturer. Along with that, there needs to a function that constantly checks those 2 constant variables for equality and throws red flag when they dont =/=. And another function that takes other variables to determine what sort of user you are, and determines which variable you are allowed to change...

Your brain hurts yet? I need about 5 more paragraphs to explain this coding logic to you.
In simpler words a complete nonsense from coding perspective.

I see why your wondering takes you where it takes you, its just that from fundamental perspective it does not compute. But then again, i don't have a source code in front of me, it might very well be copy-pasted together nonsense by Indian monkeys.


IMO, sending your PCM for a reflash to 3rd party is the way to go. Current software checking for clutch slip is a retardation of a highest order. Ill give you couple of future scenarios:

• aged clutch + pulling trailer/ complex offroading = clutch slip = limp mode.
• water crossing = clutch slip = limp mode = totaled Jeep.
• offroading in mud = clutch slip = limp mode + you stuck in mud = get fucked.

 

[andrei]

If anyone is curious about continuation of my adventure with ACT garbage:

It has been about 5000 miles after replacing ACT clutch and pressure plate with new. The smoothness in shifting has degraded, and felt shifting is delayed. On some days, after releasing clutch pedal there is about half second delay before clutch slams into a flywheel.

Roaring Wookiee has not returned yet, last time it appeared around 4000 mile mark.

Overall roughly mimics previous behavior.

Since October, ACT is yet to reimburse me for replacement parts or update me about the ones i sent them back. To my last inquiry they had no clue i even sent then anything.

 

[BHank0688]

Mmmm i have doubts on that one.
To begin with, what is stock? You said it yourself " it would be a lot of work to create an update for each configuration". There are also replacement PCMs that have never been married to a vehicle. And i can only imagine what a disaster it will be when JL enters secondary market as a 15+ year old vehicle after multiple owners.

Unless code is written by 1st semester freshman in medical science, that is not how codes are written. For what you say to be true, there have to be 2 constant (unchangable) variables (your veh parameters) coded into a program, that represent the same value, and only one of them is allowed to be changed by you and other only by manufacturer. Along with that, there needs to a function that constantly checks those 2 constant variables for equality and throws red flag when they dont =/=. And another function that takes other variables to determine what sort of user you are, and determines which variable you are allowed to change...

Your brain hurts yet? I need about 5 more paragraphs to explain this coding logic to you.
In simpler words a complete nonsense from coding perspective.

I see why your wondering takes you where it takes you, its just that from fundamental perspective it does not compute. But then again, i don't have a source code in front of me, it might very well be copy-pasted together nonsense by Indian monkeys.


IMO, sending your PCM for a reflash to 3rd party is the way to go. Current software checking for clutch slip is a retardation of a highest order. Ill give you couple of future scenarios:

• aged clutch + pulling trailer/ complex offroading = clutch slip = limp mode.
• water crossing = clutch slip = limp mode = totaled Jeep.
• offroading in mud = clutch slip = limp mode + you stuck in mud = get fucked.

Just wondering, but did anyone ever figure out of the recall replacement clutch is actually different than the originals? If not then a 3rd party pcm reflash just leaves anyone with the same, but probably rare, fire risk.

 

[gek]

Just wondering, but did anyone ever figure out of the recall replacement clutch is actually different than the originals? If not then a 3rd party pcm reflash just leaves anyone with the same, but probably rare, fire risk.

The only thing that made anyone think it was different is a different part number, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is a different part. We know it is the same design, but do not know if it is made from different materials.

Everyone I know and trust says it feels the same after the break in. Sure it feels different at first, it is a brand new clutch, but after break in period it feels like it used to.

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