Manual Transmission - Issues shifting into 1st & Reverse (Compilation thread)

[SadRobot]

Looks like a lot of folks are trading in for autos. That's a bummer.

My clutch came out yet again but of no fault of its own. I had to take it off my old engine and put it into my new engine.

Here it is nice and cleaned up right before it went back into the Jeep. It has about 9k miles on it since it was re-installed with the correct grease. No major shifting issues since then and I imagine since it's all clean now it'll shift better than ever once I get the Jeep running again.

Sponsored

 

[jbcrane]

Looks like a lot of folks are trading in for autos. That's a bummer.

My clutch came out yet again but of no fault of its own. I had to take it off my old engine and put it into my new engine.

Here it is nice and cleaned up right before it went back into the Jeep. It has about 9k miles on it since it was re-installed with the correct grease. No major shifting issues since then and I imagine since it's all clean now it'll shift better than ever once I get the Jeep running again.

its a thing of beauty...

 

[andrei]

Looks like a lot of folks are trading in for autos. That's a bummer.

My clutch came out yet again but of no fault of its own. I had to take it off my old engine and put it into my new engine.

Here it is nice and cleaned up right before it went back into the Jeep. It has about 9k miles on it since it was re-installed with the correct grease. No major shifting issues since then and I imagine since it's all clean now it'll shift better than ever once I get the Jeep running again.

Nice!

I am currently in front of the shop waiting to open up so I could proceed with the job.

The plan is to wipe off included grease with the clutch and use dry moly lube. Hopefully will have it done in less than 8 hours.

 

[andrei]

Okay, update on my end:

First, completed everything in 6h and 40ish min, not bad in my opinion.
Second, blew N3 fuse and got stranded in the middle of nowhere till late night. Big thank you to forum members for quick respond and providing guidance.

Overall, as much and what ever grease that was provided with the kit is what has been applied. In my eyes that is bare minimum. Over greasing is not applicable to me.

• Inspected splines, no abnormalities noted.
• Imitated travel of the disk and TOB, smooth travel with nothing to note. There was nothing that gave me a reason to stop and investigate further.
• Proceeded to removed old grease and used dry moly lube instead.
• Gave it a test fit before reassembly, smooth range of motion and no reason for concern.

Outcome sucks, it sucks bad, shifting is bad now. R, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd are like hitting a wall. Previously at stop i could wiggle into 2nd to get into 1st, now only 4rth engages as it should and from there i can get into other gears. Disengagement became notably sticky, downshifting from all gears has a bit of resistance.
Took it for 2 hour spin, it remained the same though the ride.
Returned home, during reversing into parkin spot a message on dashboard lit up " Service Transmission".

Fact that a TS threw a message made me happy. Either I did not fully seat one of the connectors, or something is happening there and being picked up by some sensor. At very least i can take this to the clueless dumb fucks at the service department and they cant talk their way out of it.

Now. lets do some thinking here...
1st, i want everyone take a note on the amount of clutch dust. Now look at the photo #4 below, that brown color on the output shaft is a mix of grease and dust. IF use of slightly more viscous grease causes issues (like Red n Tacky), what will grease mixed with friction material cause?
Furthermore, me changing to dry lube has clearly resulted in negative outcome.

Pictures:

Vids:
output shaft, clutch splines, and overall condition of the clutch

 

[BHank0688]

Okay, update on my end:

First, completed everything in 6h and 40ish min, not bad in my opinion.
Second, blew N3 fuse and got stranded in the middle of nowhere till late night. Big thank you to forum members for quick respond and providing guidance.

Overall, as much and what ever grease that was provided with the kit is what has been applied. In my eyes that is bare minimum. Over greasing is not applicable to me.

• Inspected splines, no abnormalities noted.
• Imitated travel of the disk and TOB, smooth travel with nothing to note. There was nothing that gave me a reason to stop and investigate further.
• Proceeded to removed old grease and used dry moly lube instead.
• Gave it a test fit before reassembly, smooth range of motion and no reason for concern.

Outcome sucks, it sucks bad, shifting is bad now. R, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd are like hitting a wall. Previously at stop i could wiggle into 2nd to get into 1st, now only 4rth engages as it should and from there i can get into other gears. Disengagement became notably sticky, downshifting from all gears has a bit of resistance.
Took it for 2 hour spin, it remained the same though the ride.
Returned home, during reversing into parkin spot a message on dashboard lit up " Service Transmission".

Fact that a TS threw a message made me happy. Either I did not fully seat one of the connectors, or something is happening there and being picked up by some sensor. At very least i can take this to the clueless dumb fucks at the service department and they cant talk their way out of it.

Now. lets do some thinking here...
1st, i want everyone take a note on the amount of clutch dust. Now look at the photo #4 below, that brown color on the output shaft is a mix of grease and dust. IF use of slightly more viscous grease causes issues (like Red n Tacky), what will grease mixed with friction material cause?
Furthermore, me changing to dry lube has clearly resulted in negative outcome.

Something i just noticed, this is a zoom in of photo #5, notice distinct lines on the splines, I put green dots next to them. As i stated previously, no abnormalities were noticed during the process, i wiped surfaces of the splines with a napkin, there were no burrs that were catching on to anything. In my opinion, those marks are grease formations, but why are are they forming like this?

View attachment 999675


Pictures:

Vids:
output shaft, clutch splines, and overall condition of the clutch

Thanks for taking the time to make that post. Sorry there wasn’t a better outcome. How’s the grab point of the clutch pedal? Based on past experience I’d just bleed the system even when the hydraulics weren’t opened up. The best results for me is to take the slave out, put the bleeder facing up and let it gravity bleed. Was the transmission/ clutch cable bracket removed? Or have you ever tried to adjust the cables? Some people’s posts in the past had made me wonder if these cables stretch a little on their own and cause shifting issues. No proof of this, just something I’ve wondered based on other people’s experiences. Good luck!

 

[Cutterone]

I very much appreciate the knowledge and ability of you guys to break down this transmission and troubleshoot it. My sticking point was that even after the first few recalls and installing a CF2 clutch, I still had these issues a few years down the line, as others had attested to even after aftermarket intervention. All of this should not be an issue on 50-70K vehicles with a transmission type that has existed for over 120 years. I wish you all good luck but I had enough and moves on to a '25 Willys auto after driving nothing but stick for 30 years. I miss it no dout, but the upsides far outweigh all the lingering issues...I miss the clunky but purely functional 6sp in my JK!!!

 

[andrei]

Back again with another update.

It is deep into the night, weather is cool 71, fresh breeze with light rain. Went for a ride, and guess what... i don't have a damn thing to complain about.
Drove around the neighborhood, 1st 2nd 3rd reverse, up and down no problemos muchachos.
Took on the highway and off to another neighborhood, no problemos.
Did multiple high rev pulls from 2nd to 3rd (were very problematic in the past), not a single grind or hang up.
IF i were to be really picky, maybe at one of the red light 1st felt a bit tight.
Every shift is precise and more tactile than in the past, this could be result of dry lube vs grease?

So what is the difference between earlier today and now?
Earlier Jeep was idling for 40 minutes before i went for a ride and it was the hottest time of the day. Just now i did my typical 3 minute warm up.

Decided to test the "heat expansion" theory. In case you are not following, in the past my shifting problems would only appear after short pitstops. On 3rd June was really hot here and that is when i experienced my 1st worst experience, R - 1st - 2nd were refusing to cooperate.
To test my assumption i pulled over and let it idle for 10 minutes.
10 minutes later 1st was hitting the wall, 2nd was hitting the wall too. Took a bit of wiggle and force to get into 2nd and then into 1st. Went for another drive, felt tightness, but overall at least it was shifting.

Will try again tomorrow.

 

[andrei]

I very much appreciate the knowledge and ability of you guys to break down this transmission and troubleshoot it. My sticking point was that even after the first few recalls and installing a CF2 clutch, I still had these issues a few years down the line, as others had attested to even after aftermarket intervention. All of this should not be an issue on 50-70K vehicles with a transmission type that has existed for over 120 years. I wish you all good luck but I had enough and moves on to a '25 Willys auto after driving nothing but stick for 30 years. I miss it no dout, but the upsides far outweigh all the lingering issues...I miss the clunky but purely functional 6sp in my JK!!!

Post #666 talks about switching to auto... I see you demon, keep whispering


:D no offense, i had a sleepless night with silly thought in my head

 

[OldGuyNewJeep]

my shifting problems would only appear after short pitstops

^^^

Exactly the same for me. I had a new [to me] shop bleed and change brake fluid about a month ago. Everything felt great for a while after that, BUT the weather had been unseasonably cool.

Today it’s hot and extremely humid. After parking at the gym for 90 minutes, I immediately had an issue getting out of reverse while backing out of my parking space.

I’m irritated. This setup was perfect for almost two years (12,000 miles). So many on the FB group say the same thing. They say it’s because aftermarket single disc are not “self adjusting?” What does that even mean? That as friction material wears down the springs/splines don’t compensate?

I’m toying with the idea of getting the 19a recall done to get a free OEM clutch, the going to JJ Off-road in Clinton, CT (I am 45 minutes away) to have the software bit rolled back.

Argh.

The CF dual friction with hydraulic throw out bearing is interesting. Can’t find any posts from people who have driven that setup past 10,000 miles.

 

[andrei]

^^^

Exactly the same for me. I had a new [to me] shop bleed and change brake fluid about a month ago. Everything felt great for a while after that, BUT the weather had been unseasonably cool.

Today it’s hot and extremely humid. After parking at the gym for 90 minutes, I immediately had an issue getting out of reverse while backing out of my parking space.

I’m irritated. This setup was perfect for almost two years (12,000 miles). So many on the FB group say the same thing. They say it’s because aftermarket single disc are not “self adjusting?” What does that even mean? That as friction material wears down the springs/splines don’t compensate?

I’m toying with the idea of getting the 19a recall done to get a free OEM clutch, the going to JJ Off-road in Clinton, CT (I am 45 minutes away) to have the software bit rolled back.

Argh.

The CF dual friction with hydraulic throw out bearing is interesting. Can’t find any posts from people who have driven that setup past 10,000 miles.

We (or at least I) not engineers, but I have brains, so let's do some thinking: if transmission is calling for a specific type of disk, it would be a proprietary part to the operation of the transmission, and be directly stated by Asin. That is not the case.

Single disk has been the definition of clutches, every vehicle I have owned operated on single disk clutch. There is nothing new here. So Dual Disk > Single Disk is not the case.

To state that all OEM are self adjusting and all aftermarket are not adjusting is ... What FB is saying does not compute to me.

What does compute to me is to look at individual manufacturer. I have ACT clutch, what does its design does not account for that every other similarly designed clutch did? ACT didn't simply invent a new clutch design for our transmission, they took already working design and adjusted dimensions to fit, that is it.
So did ACT screw up with tolerances? Possibly. Or possibly Asin has QC issues on their end, and ACT is only working with sample of 1.

I don't have data on OEM clutches, but data on ACT is plentiful: a fucking groaning Wookie appears around 4000 miles and shifting difficulty around 8000 miles. And there is actman with his silence, shit explanations, and his shit cs department that pretends like they never heard of this... As you can probably tell I am also Argh about this shit show.

 

[azwjowner]

We (or at least I) not engineers, but I have brains, so let's do some thinking: if transmission is calling for a specific type of disk, it would be a proprietary part to the operation of the transmission, and be directly stated by Asin. That is not the case.

Single disk has been the definition of clutches, every vehicle I have owned operated on single disk clutch. There is nothing new here. So Dual Disk > Single Disk is not the case.

To state that all OEM are self adjusting and all aftermarket are not adjusting is ... What FB is saying does not compute to me.

What does compute to me is to look at individual manufacturer. I have ACT clutch, what does its design does not account for that every other similarly designed clutch did? ACT didn't simply invent a new clutch design for our transmission, they took already working design and adjusted dimensions to fit, that is it.
So did ACT screw up with tolerances? Possibly. Or possibly Asin has QC issues on their end, and ACT is only working with sample of 1.

I don't have data on OEM clutches, but data on ACT is plentiful: a fucking groaning Wookie appears around 4000 miles and shifting difficulty around 8000 miles. And there is actman with his silence, shit explanations, and his shit cs department that pretends like they never heard of this... As you can probably tell I am also Argh about this shit show.

There are multiple reports of other aftermarket clutches (Centerforce) doing the exact same. So the question is what is special about the transmission such that all of them are having the same issue.

 

[OldGuyNewJeep]

We (or at least I) not engineers, but I have brains, so let's do some thinking: if transmission is calling for a specific type of disk, it would be a proprietary part to the operation of the transmission, and be directly stated by Asin. That is not the case.

Single disk has been the definition of clutches, every vehicle I have owned operated on single disk clutch. There is nothing new here. So Dual Disk > Single Disk is not the case.

To state that all OEM are self adjusting and all aftermarket are not adjusting is ... What FB is saying does not compute to me.

What does compute to me is to look at individual manufacturer. I have ACT clutch, what does its design does not account for that every other similarly designed clutch did? ACT didn't simply invent a new clutch design for our transmission, they took already working design and adjusted dimensions to fit, that is it.
So did ACT screw up with tolerances? Possibly. Or possibly Asin has QC issues on their end, and ACT is only working with sample of 1.

I don't have data on OEM clutches, but data on ACT is plentiful: a fucking groaning Wookie appears around 4000 miles and shifting difficulty around 8000 miles. And there is actman with his silence, shit explanations, and his shit cs department that pretends like they never heard of this... As you can probably tell I am also Argh about this shit show.

I also have ACT, but there are just as many who are complaining about CenterForce. One guy ditched his SouthBend after just 400 miles (and they copied OEM). One guy had McLeod fail its hydraulic throw out almost immediately.

Do they all suck? Doubt it. Something about the JL setup makes this all too complicated. Cable shifter, shared master cylinder, dry lube, no pilot, etc. This shit was figured out 80 years ago! Ugh.

What I can’t find is data on CF’s newish hydraulic throw out solution. I hate the idea of that failing and leaking inside the bell housing, but am intrigued by the idea of completely redoing the hydraulics.

This sucks. I’ve had my Jeep 7 years and it’s in awesome shape with low mileage. Loaded with options it was “only” $44k back in 2018. I realllly don’t want to pay today’s prices for something else, and realllly don’t want an automatic.

I’d invest another $2-3k for the latest CF solution *if* I had confidence it’d solve the issues, but I don’t.

 

[SadRobot]

Okay, update on my end:

First, completed everything in 6h and 40ish min, not bad in my opinion.
Second, blew N3 fuse and got stranded in the middle of nowhere till late night. Big thank you to forum members for quick respond and providing guidance.

Overall, as much and what ever grease that was provided with the kit is what has been applied. In my eyes that is bare minimum. Over greasing is not applicable to me.

• Inspected splines, no abnormalities noted.
• Imitated travel of the disk and TOB, smooth travel with nothing to note. There was nothing that gave me a reason to stop and investigate further.
• Proceeded to removed old grease and used dry moly lube instead.
• Gave it a test fit before reassembly, smooth range of motion and no reason for concern.

Outcome sucks, it sucks bad, shifting is bad now. R, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd are like hitting a wall. Previously at stop i could wiggle into 2nd to get into 1st, now only 4rth engages as it should and from there i can get into other gears. Disengagement became notably sticky, downshifting from all gears has a bit of resistance.
Took it for 2 hour spin, it remained the same though the ride.
Returned home, during reversing into parkin spot a message on dashboard lit up " Service Transmission".

Fact that a TS threw a message made me happy. Either I did not fully seat one of the connectors, or something is happening there and being picked up by some sensor. At very least i can take this to the clueless dumb fucks at the service department and they cant talk their way out of it.

Now. lets do some thinking here...
1st, i want everyone take a note on the amount of clutch dust. Now look at the photo #4 below, that brown color on the output shaft is a mix of grease and dust. IF use of slightly more viscous grease causes issues (like Red n Tacky), what will grease mixed with friction material cause?
Furthermore, me changing to dry lube has clearly resulted in negative outcome.

Something i just noticed, this is a zoom in of photo #5, notice distinct lines on the splines, I put green dots next to them. As i stated previously, no abnormalities were noticed during the process, i wiped surfaces of the splines with a napkin, there were no burrs that were catching on to anything. In my opinion, those marks are grease formations, but why are are they forming like this?

View attachment 999675


Pictures:

Vids:
output shaft, clutch splines, and overall condition of the clutch

Are you splines rusting at all? In some pictures it looks like rust to me.

 

[SadRobot]

For anyone curious this is what mine looked like after removal and 9k miles on it. At this point I had no major shifting issues going on. I think it'll be a couple more weeks until my Jeep is running and I'll be able to report on how it shifts having re-installed it all.

 

[andrei]

Are you splines rusting at all? In some pictures it looks like rust to me.

All brown that you see is clutch dust, on spline is mix of grease and clutch dust.
IMO it is a very dusty clutch for only 7000 miles of daily town commute to work on it.
I did not take a photo, by my yellow pressure plate was covered in brown. If you take a look at my video #1 (post 664), output shaft is covered with it, as well as riding surface of TOB.

Previously I assumed that friction material mixed with grease was causing too much friction, but if after cleaning and using dry grease the same problems persist, my previous assumption holds no value.

Sponsored