How feasible is it to remove BSG/E-Torque system?

[jeepstylin]

I'm with you regarding simplicity. However, I don't know what you would buy today that didn't have a level of complexity that allows you to emergency service the unit to put back into service. We live in a world that is not thinking of simplicity anymore.

However, regardless of the complexity lever...if you snap a drive shaft it won't make any difference. If you snap an axle, probably won't make a difference.

It truly is the luck of the draw of what fails and when. My rule....deal with it when and if you need to otherwise don't think about it.

And don't ever come to a forum for an opinion, you'll get more assumptions and speculation than you care to read. Come here for tips and what people have done and how effective their mods/changes are and how they apply to you.

Some folks come here with questions that you know are going to go in the toilet fast and are usually "stoned to death" in the first 3 posts!!! lol

Touche, my friend. If I was really afraid of things breaking while four wheeling, I wouldn't already own a Jeep. My logic was simple: If I have a choice between having five complex things that can break or four, I'll take four.

Appreciate your comments. The fact that you have to lay that all out for me is really a sad fact, especially for anyone new and just trying to learn. I'm not a noob. And I'm not new to forums. I know that wrath. I'm just here to gather info, and if I buy a JL, hopefully help out someone else who is trying to learn how to make their Jeep better or more fun. There's a lot other crap in this world to get upset about, Jeeps are not one of those for me.

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[Yellow Cake Kid]

It's not uncommon see people heading out to help with a welder. an extra axle, mechanical parts etc. but there's not much help available for anything other than the most basic electrical problems.

 

[jeepstylin]

It's not uncommon see people heading out to help with a welder. an extra axle, mechanical parts etc. but there's not much help available for anything other than the most basic electrical problems.

Yep. Totally agree. Wheeling a JL, or any newer vehicle for that matter, comes with some risks. But this seems to support the idea that having less things to break or damage is probably helpful.

Sat phones are also a great invention.

 

[wolf]

My goal is to use the vehicle for overlanding to remote places. That said, a mechanical lever actuated transfer case, solid axles and a normally aspirated engine were the main features I was targeting (IE - things you don't get in a Bronco).

Its simple logic, the more complex a system is, the more things can go wrong. The easiest way to not have a part/system break is to not have it at all. I don't need BSG to make a Jeep move forward. I have also been underneath my CJ7 fixing things in fairly remote places. Stuff will break, especially with age (and yes, I maintain my stuff well).

I plan to own the vehicle a very long time. Simple is better.

My goal is to use the vehicle for overlanding to remote places. That said, a mechanical lever actuated transfer case, solid axles and a normally aspirated engine were the main features I was targeting (IE - things you don't get in a Bronco).

Its simple logic, the more complex a system is, the more things can go wrong. The easiest way to not have a part/system break is to not have it at all. I don't need BSG to make a Jeep move forward. I have also been underneath my CJ7 fixing things in fairly remote places. Stuff will break, especially with age (and yes, I maintain my stuff well).

I plan to own the vehicle a very long time. Simple is better.

IDK, reading this thread and posts by @oceanblue2019 got me rethinking the value of the BSG/ETorque.
https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...wer-how-do-i-use-it-to-power-my-fridge.54950/
I was originally skeptical of the system but it does seem to have some advantages.
Gregj

jeepstylin, I agree simple is better, sooner or later there will be(if not already)shops that will convert vehicles back to what you want at a price. Eg: get rid of all the sensors and crap that goes with it and all the electronics no one wants. Even the auto trans is not connected with linkage.

 

[wolf]

Would be nice to purchase just the the vehicle without engine,transmission. Then add your own. Sort of like lite brute Jeep’s did but Not quite as expensive.

 

[Gregj]

Would be nice to purchase just the the vehicle without engine,transmission. Then add your own. Sort of like lite brute Jeep’s did but Not quite as expensive.

You could try and get a "body in white", but then it would be off-road only. If you are going off-road only why even start with a JL?

Gregj

 

[moodywizard]

Doesn't the 2021 3.6 rubi come without BSG?

Edit: Just saw the order guide, wow 3.6 without BSG only available with Manual trans. Guess Jeep/Dodge/Fiat really needed the CAFE numbers haha (sorry OP not laughing at you just the whole picture)

Anything is possible with enough money but I have not seen someone eliminate the BSG yet.. Either 3.6 or 2.0. Have not even seen a 2.0 to V8 conversion yet.

 

[oceanblue2019]

Hey, sorry if I offended you. As mentioned I've poked around the BSG/mild hybrid system quite a bit.

What a lot don't realize is the BSG is fairly stand alone in how it functions; and a bolt onto the existing engine. Engine cold start is the normal setup with a conventional starter.

Where the BSG takes over is with "hot starts" as part of the stop-start system, and obviously the generator side to charge the BSG battery.

I can tell you the vehicle will start 100% fine via the standard starter if the BSG battery is low or disconnected completely. You will just get a warning that start-stop is disabled until battery charged or serviced. I have tested running battery down and you get the charge notice; I have tested disconnecting the battery and you get the service notice. The DC to DC convertor still converts the BSG generator 48V output to 12V to charge the primary battery and run the vehicle systems.

If you removed the entire BSG battery and all the shit that comes to support it (coolant loop, freon loop) you would get a warning over "Start Stop Disabled - Service System" and everything else would work fine. Just a nag screen. The Tazer guys can probably give you a firmware release to solve that just like they have done for PSC steering with the electric pump removed.

So then your added complexity is having a 48V generator (the "G" in the BSG module), and 48V to 12V DC to DC convertor that provides the power that a standard alternator would to the 12V primary system. The "S" in the BSG would never be used as the SS would be disabled as outlined above.

So yes, you end up with the extra DC to DC convertor in the loop which brings another point of failure that could strand you. Without it the Jeep will deplete it's 12V primary battery and then you are stranded. You could mitigate this with another means to charge the battery - solar, etc, ideally of capacity to power the running systems the vehicle needs to operate (PCM, base electronics, etc).

I would argue that the BSG (the actual starter/generator portion) itself is likely more reliable than a standard alternator when just operating as a generator and not a starter. It is way overbuilt to act as a starter with big beefy bearings, shaft, and belt drive. So running it only as a generator it will last a very long time.

 

[JEEPIDON]

It's not uncommon see people heading out to help with a welder. an extra axle, mechanical parts etc. but there's not much help available for anything other than the most basic electrical problems.

No doubt there are things you can bring as backup but as we all know...you can't bring your entire repair shop.

My rule is simple...if you're going to the isolated destination, never do it alone. Whether it's an ATV, 4-Wheel Rig or old Crop duster (have one of those too) never travel alone. especially in today's environment.

A few months ago I ATV'd with an old school friend to the top of a mountain in upstate NY where I used to go as a kid and just a great serene place. We ran into a coven of witches conducting some kind of satanic ritual. Talk about freaking out!!!! There were friendly and asked us to join them and learn about the "other side". We fired our machines up and high tailed out of there.

Thank goodness we had a couple of shot guns with us but didn't need them. Even the most remote places are not safe.

You just can't make this shit up! Be careful and always go with someone if possible in a separate rig.

Good luck, my friend.

 

[jeepstylin]

Hey, sorry if I offended you. As mentioned I've poked around the BSG/mild hybrid system quite a bit.

What a lot don't realize is the BSG is fairly stand alone in how it functions; and a bolt onto the existing engine. Engine cold start is the normal setup with a conventional starter.

Where the BSG takes over is with "hot starts" as part of the stop-start system, and obviously the generator side to charge the BSG battery.

I can tell you the vehicle will start 100% fine via the standard starter if the BSG battery is low or disconnected completely. You will just get a warning that start-stop is disabled until battery charged or serviced. I have tested running battery down and you get the charge notice; I have tested disconnecting the battery and you get the service notice. The DC to DC convertor still converts the BSG generator 48V output to 12V to charge the primary battery and run the vehicle systems.

If you removed the entire BSG battery and all the shit that comes to support it (coolant loop, freon loop) you would get a warning over "Start Stop Disabled - Service System" and everything else would work fine. Just a nag screen. The Tazer guys can probably give you a firmware release to solve that just like they have done for PSC steering with the electric pump removed.

So then your added complexity is having a 48V generator (the "G" in the BSG module), and 48V to 12V DC to DC convertor that provides the power that a standard alternator would to the 12V primary system. The "S" in the BSG would never be used as the SS would be disabled as outlined above.

So yes, you end up with the extra DC to DC convertor in the loop which brings another point of failure that could strand you. Without it the Jeep will deplete it's 12V primary battery and then you are stranded. You could mitigate this with another means to charge the battery - solar, etc, ideally of capacity to power the running systems the vehicle needs to operate (PCM, base electronics, etc).

I would argue that the BSG (the actual starter/generator portion) itself is likely more reliable than a standard alternator when just operating as a generator and not a starter. It is way overbuilt to act as a starter with big beefy bearings, shaft, and belt drive. So running it only as a generator it will last a very long time.

As I said before, not offended at all. By anyone. I'm just asking some questions to get some answers. People ask me questions and I try to help them, or just say "don't know" when I don't know.

This info is extremely helpful. It actually is pretty intriguing. And you're right, the generator component is massive compared to a regular starter. All good things to consider.

 

[oceanblue2019]

As I said before, not offended at all. By anyone. I'm just asking some questions to get some answers. People ask me questions and I try to help them, or just say "don't know" when I don't know.

This info is extremely helpful. It actually is pretty intriguing. And you're right, the generator component is massive compared to a regular starter. All good things to consider.

One thing that could also be done..... I suspect the DC to DC convertor could be ditched and replaced by a Victron Orion 48/12-30's. They are small and cheap enough you could carry a spare with you to get around the SPOF. They can also be run in parallel so you could have them setup as active/active and if one fails you are just limited to 30A versus 60A at 12V. That's probably still enough to run all the systems you need to get you back to civilization. Victron is good stuff, used in a lot of offshore applications where getting back to port is a concern as well.

https://www.victronenergy.com/uploa...DC-DC-converters-isolated-100-250-400W-EN.pdf

So you'd connect the BSG generator providing 48VDC to these convertors, and from that back into the 12V system.

Then all that is left is the actual starter/generator which if you really wanted to you could carry a spare. You would carry a spare alternator anyhow for field swap if needed in a standard vehicle and this is just a bigger/beefier version.

 

[jeepstylin]

One thing that could also be done..... I suspect the DC to DC convertor could be ditched and replaced by a Victron Orion 48/12-30's. They are small and cheap enough you could carry a spare with you to get around the SPOF. They can also be run in parallel so you could have them setup as active/active and if one fails you are just limited to 30A versus 60A at 12V. That's probably still enough to run all the systems you need to get you back to civilization. Victron is good stuff, used in a lot of offshore applications where getting back to port is a concern as well.

https://www.victronenergy.com/uploa...DC-DC-converters-isolated-100-250-400W-EN.pdf

So you'd connect the BSG generator providing 48VDC to these convertors, and from that back into the 12V system.

Then all that is left is the actual starter/generator which if you really wanted to you could carry a spare. You would carry a spare alternator anyhow for field swap if needed in a standard vehicle and this is just a bigger/beefier version.

That is a really cool idea. Definitely will look into it. Thanks again.

 

[four low]

Thank you, Ocean Blue, it took 40 posts to get an intelligent , comprehensive answer to the original question, but it was well worth the wading through Snark and Angst...

 

[rubileon]

My goal is to use the vehicle for overlanding to remote places. That said, a mechanical lever actuated transfer case, solid axles and a normally aspirated engine were the main features I was targeting (IE - things you don't get in a Bronco).

Its simple logic, the more complex a system is, the more things can go wrong. The easiest way to not have a part/system break is to not have it at all. I don't need BSG to make a Jeep move forward. I have also been underneath my CJ7 fixing things in fairly remote places. Stuff will break, especially with age (and yes, I maintain my stuff well).

I plan to own the vehicle a very long time. Simple is better.

Over landing in remote places eh? And you need a Wrangler because you will be crawing in those places by yourself too? That should be the first no no.

If you're not going to be crawling or if you're not going to have the softop on, there are plenty of other vehicles to go for if you're after reliability.

If you must go for a Wrangler, and if you have experience tinkering with a CJ, go for a TJ or a JK. They're not void if electronics but the electronics aren't as widespread in them as they are in the JL. Plus you'll have spare money to make it even more robust. You won't be missing much with a good JK. You might even be able to find a done up JK from someone who's going for a JL.

 

[jeepstylin]

Over landing in remote places eh? And you need a Wrangler because you will be crawing in those places by yourself too? That should be the first no no.

If you're not going to be crawling or if you're not going to have the softop on, there are plenty of other vehicles to go for if you're after reliability.

If you must go for a Wrangler, and if you have experience tinkering with a CJ, go for a TJ or a JK. They're not void if electronics but the electronics aren't as widespread in them as they are in the JL. Plus you'll have spare money to make it even more robust. You won't be missing much with a good JK. You might even be able to find a done up JK from someone who's going for a JL.

There are a lot of great places to drive to and camp in this country. I plan to go to them. I will probably use a Wrangler, as many others have (see YouTube). I will probably get a small overland trailer, just as many others have, so that I can "grab and go". That way I don't worry about payload issues and I can use the Jeep for other adventures, hence the dual tops (CJ never has a top on). I have friends who will make the trek with me in their vehicles. First trip will probably be South Dakota. Excellent advice to never wheel alone.

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