Dry Start A Good Idea?

[Willys41]

I installed the Baxter oil filter adapter on both my 3.6 and glad I did
The first time I changed my oil on my new Willys in 2020 after letting it sit over night night I looked at the oil filter housing and said this is going to be a mess
I was surprised to fined there was NO oil in the oil filter housing.It was completely empty and no oil was dripping from the filter.It was almost dry
Not only had all the oil drained back to the pan from the filter housing put also the oil cooler
So when starting cold or after setting for a long time the filter housing / oil cooler will have to refill pushing all that air though the oil galleys
I said OUT LOUD This is not right and started looking for a solution
I had seen the Baxter but was not convinced until saw my local 4X4 shop installing one on a jeep 3.6
Joe told me he has installed dozen and dozen with out any issues and they work holding the oil up in the filter housing / oil cooler
I no longer get the bone chilling rattle rattle on star up
On another note.
Maserati 3.0 v6 compare to pentastar 3.6 engine
The Maserati 3.0 v6 uses 5w40 oil and runs at 195-200 coolant temps
I am now running 5w40 oil and control the coolant temp via RPM EXTREME JL fan controller on my highly modified Willys

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[Redcanyon77]

So I happened on a YouTube just after I took delivery of the JL and they were describing how the 3.6 does not have a one way valve in the oil filter assembly, so when you switch off, all the oil drains out of the top half of the engine, so when you start up from cold, there is no oil up there for a few seconds, hence problems down the track with lifters etc. Sounded reasonable to me, and they were pushing their own oil filter assembly that incorporated a one way check valve, which sounded good, except would give the dealer an out if it ever came to a power train warranty issue.
So every morning, I have been dry starting - foot flat on the gas and brake - motor will crank but does not start. figuring that this will oil the top half of the motor, then I start normally.
Dumb idea or not?

So the only thing you are actually removing is the combustion. Does this somehow remove the need for oil. Not sure how anything changes. Are we suggesting that it’s ok to crank an engine with no oil as long as you don’t start it?

 

[Aussicon]

Interesting. Thanks for posting.

 

[smokeythecat]

but then there's armchair engineers who know better..........

I think this is the default mode of human beings. Something gets postulated because it sounds logical and then it starts to be taken as fact. What is almost always missing is some hard data to support the original idea. I am always trying to be on guard against this in myself, not always successfully.

 

[Aussicon]

I figured cranking at a few hundred rpm while building oil pressure has got to be better than a cold start at 1200 rpm with no oil.

 

[Aussicon]

Of course makes me wonder why Jeep engineers never felt the need to add a one way check valve like the Baxter unit. You would think they would have updated the design if they felt it was necessary. Mind you, they still think a plastic oil filter housing and oil cooler is ok too.

 

[mwilk012]

Foot hard on both pedals, push start and engine cranks but does not start. Hopefully circulating the oil around the valve train and reducing risk of lifter problems down the track. That’s the theory anyway. Maybe a complete waste of time but I figured it was worth investigating.

I can tell you it reduces timing chain rattle on those nasty ford Ecoboost engines to near zero after an oil change. In the end whether it helps or not, it can’t hurt.

 

[richk225]

Of course makes me wonder why Jeep engineers never felt the need to add a one way check valve like the Baxter unit. You would think they would have updated the design if they felt it was necessary. Mind you, they still think a plastic oil filter housing and oil cooler is ok too.

There is a lot that can be added to your list of what is and what it should be

 

[richk225]

Don’t most spin on oil filters have a anti drain valve in them? I’m not sure if they do or if they did.

I would imagine Baxter Performance did some homework before releasing it to public. I like the fact that they offer you the option enabling you to add an aftermarket oil cooler without major mods

I can say that with owning a Gen 2 Raptor a lot of people would do the dry start with the pedal to the floor to build up oil pressure to help keep the cam phasers from destroying themselves, some say it helped others say it didn't, but it is cheap insurance on a vehicle that is known for having failures due to a particular issue. Worst part was that when they failed don’t expect for a whole new engine, some only received a new top end and were left with an engine that had a lot of metal going through the oiling system, while others would receive a new long block, go figure?
There are huge debates on just what oil filter you should buy so why not try to keep the top end oiled up with a anti drain back valve.
Maybe if you could see it on the outside of the engine bay then it would be worth the money

 

[roaniecowpony]

So the only thing you are actually removing is the combustion. Does this somehow remove the need for oil. Not sure how anything changes. Are we suggesting that it’s ok to crank an engine with no oil as long as you don’t start it?

Over on another forum, they say the reason its better is because the rpm is lower during cranking vs running. Fair enough. But the surface speed (surface feet per minute) is so low in either case that it is highly doubtful it matters in the least. The cams turn 1/2 crank speed anyway, and the cam lobes are small in diameter, further limiting the SFM.

 

[Aussicon]

I'm still on the fence. Coming from a performance car background, you never start a newly rebuilt engine without either running the oil pump to build pressure or dry cranking to get the oil flowing.

 

[Redcanyon77]

I figured cranking at a few hundred rpm while building oil pressure has got to be better than a cold start at 1200 rpm with no oil.

Why? It’s a mechanical pump I believe. Tied directly to the rpm of the engine. You could even be doing damage by cranking at a low rpm and not allowing the pressure to build quickly. If it were some type of electrical pump that kicked in at full pressure at the turn of the key then maybe.

 

[richk225]

Why? It’s a mechanical pump I believe. Tied directly to the rpm of the engine. You could even be doing damage by cranking at a low rpm and not allowing the pressure to build quickly. If it were some type of electrical pump that kicked in at full pressure at the turn of the key then maybe.

Here is a better explanation of a dry sump and a wet sump
I can tell you on my marine engine A Mercury Racing 525 it did come with a Pre-Oiler or oiling system to get oil throughout the engine before you started it up. I would think they would have done this because of the time a boat may sit before it is started again, cheap insurance. I would think that Mercury Racing and Mercury Marine and other manufactures wouldn't just stick this set-up on the engine without any testing. They also used to offer wet or dry sump oiling systems on the outdrives too and I think they were available with a Pre-Oiling system too

I believe they even have it on their V-12 Outboard engine and possibly all of their supercharged outboards

https://www.flocomponents.com/sln_engine_prelubrication_systems/

https://www.hagerty.com/media/maintenance-and-tech/how-dry-sump-oil-systems-work/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_sump

 

[roaniecowpony]

We just ran the oil pump with a drill on fresh v8s.

 

[dstevens]

Better than me, I'd turn the engine by hand until I got oil pressure on engines I built.

Two items of concern require oil pressure to function - the chain tensioner and lifters. Pentastar chain tensioner seems ok but the hydraulic lifters... every cold start I could hear them clatter until they pumped up. I'm not sure of the failure mode for the followers but it could be they are not happy with excessive clearance because it seems the needles escape eventually. I installed the baxter adapter in mine.

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