Cold climate = no go

[mllcb42]

I'm sure they do have that number. I assumed you must as well after making a definitive statement like this, being that is what you'd need to know to determine what a fully charged battery would support absent actually testing it:

Even with a fully charged battery if left out for 8-12hours , without being plugged in the main battery will discharge itself trying to keep it warm before that 8-12 timeframe and then will not start under its own power .

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[Slaw32]

I'm sure they do have that number. I assumed you must as well after making a definitive statement like this, being that is what you'd need to know to determine what a fully charged battery would support absent actually testing it:

I'm pretty sure someone will be able to give us a real word report after this winter . I would rely on that much more than laboratory tests reported by the manufacturer . Sometimes I think they skew their own tests to have a better chance of results in their favor .

 

[jeepoch]

Depends on how long it's been sitting in sub -25F. Time is the major variable here. If you need to leave the vehicle sitting out in sub -25F for a long enough period of time to fully drain the battery and then cold soak, yes, it wouldn't start. We would need some more information to determine how far away your leave it out overnight use case is from the use case where that's an issue though.

Living in that climate doesn't mean that you're going to have to leave your vehicle sitting out that long.

If you live in that climate AND have a unique use case that would require you to leave the vehicle parked in that situation long enough to fully drain the battery and then cold soak, then yes, this isn't the car for you.


You are taking a certain environment, layering on a very limited use case, and then applying that situation to a much larger demographic group. That is the disingenuous part.

Matt,

We are nowhere near practical reality with current battery technologies. We are pushing this wishful thinking past it's breaking point.

Cold temperatures are but one of many battery issues that our mobile society can't yet cope with, at least outside the near perfect use case of what these vehicles are being sold for. The disigenuous part is that these things are not yet ready for prime time, especially not within the market segment where they're being touted.

Just wait until these large batteries start nearing their nominal capacity lifecycle and see how many people will suffer buyer's remorse. Like everything else nothing's perfect. But we are being force-fed the ubiquitous illusion that electric vehicles (even hybrids) are much better than they are. Even to the point that we are polically trying to kill the internal combustion industry altogether.

Thankfully the 4Xe has a sound reliable power-plant behind it's battery. How many 4Xe owners in a few years will just drive it's fossil fuel sourced engine when the usefulness of the battery can't produce even a few miles of propulsion? Large EV batteries are not cheap to replace. My suspicion is that all owner's that didn't invest in a two year lease will eventually despise their decision to buy.

Battery technology (at least today) is nowhere near being close to delivering power potentially as economical as any tank of petrol. My non-electric JL is ready to travel as far and often as I care to drive it without ever needing it to be plugged in. Then it takes only a few minutes to recharge the tank. Try that with any battery.

Granted I'm mixing both purely EV and PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) concepts and behaviors but I'm making the point that any type of EV is not what it's being hyped up to be. We are being grossly mislead about the panacea of totally moving away from the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) way prematurely. Given more time my bet for the future is in hydrogen fuel cells.

Nope, count me out about being a true advocate for any kind of EV vehicle, at least not yet. Please however, be one of the guinea pigs for dealing with all the early failure modes. We need pioneers to get anything started. But I'm smart enough to not voluntarily suffer that pain.

I love my 3.6L JL currently as it is. It will take an act of God (or a couple hundred dollars per gallon) in order for me to want to stop driving it.

Unfortunately, I believe that's exactly the intent behind all this green hype.

Jay

 

[Slaw32]

Matt,

We are nowhere near practical reality with current battery technologies. We are pushing this wishful thinking past it's breaking point.

Cold temperatures are but one of many battery issues that our mobile society can't yet cope with, at least outside the near perfect use case of what these vehicles are being sold for. The disigenuous part is that these things are not yet ready for prime time, especially not within the market segment where they're being touted.

Just wait until these large batteries start nearing their nominal capacity lifecycle and see how many people will suffer buyer's remorse. Like everything else nothing's perfect. But we are being force-fed the ubiquitous illusion that electric vehicles (even hybrids) are much better than they are. Even to the point that we are polically trying to kill the internal combustion industry altogether.

Thankfully the 4Xe has a sound reliable power-plant behind it's battery. How many 4Xe owners in a few years will just drive it's fossil fuel sourced engine when the usefulness of the battery can't produce even a few miles of propulsion? Large EV batteries are not cheap to replace. My suspicion is that all owner's that didn't invest in a two year lease will eventually despise their decision to buy.

Battery technology (at least today) is nowhere near being close to delivering power potentially as economical as any tank of petrol. My non-electric JL is ready to travel as far and often as I care to drive it without ever needing it to be plugged in. Then it takes only a few minutes to recharge the tank. Try that with any battery.

Granted I'm mixing both purely EV and PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) concepts and behaviors but I'm making the point that any type of EV is not what it's being hyped up to be. We are being grossly mislead about the panacea of totally moving away from the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) way prematurely. Given more time my bet for the future is in hydrogen fuel cells.

Nope, count me out about being a true advocate for any kind of EV vehicle, at least not yet. Please however, be one of the guinea pigs for dealing with all the early failure modes. We need pioneers to get anything started. But I'm smart enough to not voluntarily suffer that pain.

I love my 3.6L JL currently as it is. It will take an act of God (or a couple hundred dollars per gallon) in order for me to want to stop driving it.

Unfortunately, I believe that's exactly the intent behind all this green hype.

Jay

Very well said sir . I wish I could put words together like you just did .
I started this thread after I ordered a Willys 3.6 because I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing an opportunity to upgrade from a traditional gas powered power plant . I still had time to change my order as I more than likely won't see it till April or may . The more I looked the more I was shocked how this specific vehicle was not suited to northern winter conditions . I'm glad I live in america , the greatest nation on this earth . The free exchange of information is how you can make the most informed decision . I love jeep and all it stands for as well , but I think this vehicle is not suited to this environment and think people should know this before they spend probably the second largest amount of money , besides a home , they will spend on a means of transportation that they need to count on to start and run every time they need it to .
Again thanks for saying in one post much better than I have in all of my attempts to explain my concerns .

 

[mllcb42]

I'm pretty sure someone will be able to give us a real word report after this winter . I would rely on that much more than laboratory tests reported by the manufacturer . Sometimes I think they skew their own tests to have a better chance of results in their favor .

Real world test data is never a bad thing, as long as it's performed in a reasonable manner.

Matt,

We are nowhere near practical reality with current battery technologies. We are pushing this wishful thinking past it's breaking point.

Cold temperatures are but one of many battery issues that our mobile society can't yet cope with, at least outside the near perfect use case of what these vehicles are being sold for. The disigenuous part is that these things are not yet ready for prime time, especially not within the market segment where they're being touted.

Just wait until these large batteries start nearing their nominal capacity lifecycle and see how many people will suffer buyer's remorse. Like everything else nothing's perfect. But we are being force-fed the ubiquitous illusion that electric vehicles (even hybrids) are much better than they are. Even to the point that we are polically trying to kill the internal combustion industry altogether.

Thankfully the 4Xe has a sound reliable power-plant behind it's battery. How many 4Xe owners in a few years will just drive it's fossil fuel sourced engine when the usefulness of the battery can't produce even a few miles of propulsion? Large EV batteries are not cheap to replace. My suspicion is that all owner's that didn't invest in a two year lease will eventually despise their decision to buy.

Battery technology (at least today) is nowhere near being close to delivering power potentially as economical as any tank of petrol. My non-electric JL is ready to travel as far and often as I care to drive it without ever needing it to be plugged in. Then it takes only a few minutes to recharge the tank. Try that with any battery.

Granted I'm mixing both purely EV and PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) concepts and behaviors but I'm making the point that any type of EV is not what it's being hyped up to be. We are being grossly mislead about the panacea of totally moving away from the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) way prematurely. Given more time my bet for the future is in hydrogen fuel cells.

Nope, count me out about being a true advocate for any kind of EV vehicle, at least not yet. Please however, be one of the guinea pigs for dealing with all the early failure modes. We need pioneers to get anything started. But I'm smart enough to not voluntarily suffer that pain.

I love my 3.6L JL currently as it is. It will take an act of God (or a couple hundred dollars per gallon) in order for me to want to stop driving it.

Unfortunately, I believe that's exactly the intent behind all this green hype.

Jay

I sold my Audi E-tron to replace it with a 4xe (I also have a 392 on order for whatever it's worth). I agree with you that the technology is rapidly changing and improving and there are use case limitations to EVs; they certainly don't fit everyone's needs. I don't agree with your general assessment regarding their total uselessness.

If I was doing daily trips that were 300+ miles, I'd never consider doing it in an EV. The impact of charging on the trip is not nearly as bad as most "non-EV" people make it out to be. It's also worse that most EV diehards make it out to be. With that said, most people don't make 300+ mile trips daily. The amount of time one spends pumping gas at a gas station is significantly more than the amount of time most EV drivers ever spend sitting at a charging station. People often focus on a specific, less common use case and then extrapolate those limitations to their entire use. That isn't a reasonable approach. It's the exact same discussion we're having here... there are times when it isn't the right tool for the job. For some people that corner case is every day. For most people, that corner case is a rare, but present exception. For many, that corner case simply doesn't exist.

I don't personally see a future for hydrogen, as the infrastructure simply isn't there and there isn't the traction to get it there. If you want to talk about not ready for prime time, the current hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are an abysmal failure of a product.

Ultimately, this is all fodder for a totally different conversation. The subject du jour comes from a specific misunderstanding of the capabilities (and limitations) of a vehicle. I'm 100% on board that the 4xe isn't the right tool for every job. It, like most vehicles, is a compromise with a use case that it excels in, others it handles alright, and some that it simply does not satisfy effectively. That's fine, but understanding where those lines are (and aren't) is important if you're considering the vehicle, or proselytizing against it. People often form a very strong opinion around what they think something is rather than what it actually is.

 

[foxredlab]

A recurring theme around these forums is don’t get a 4xe, a diesel, or a 2.0 as they are not “tried and true”. So many of these folks are truly terrified to even consider purchasing anything with new tech. I’m excited to try out a new 4xe and I expect it to be a fine vehicle. If it’s not, no worries, I’ll sell/trade it for a 392. ?



“Life begins at the end of your comfort zone”
-Neale Donald Walsch

 

[gerlbaum]

First and foremost the term “use case” is dumb. Now that that’s out of the way:

I once bought a small lathe because I thought I would never need a larger one. One job required the larger lathe and it caused me a lot of issues because I didn’t have it and it cost a lot of money to remedy that mistake.

I won’t but a vehicle because of the 90%. I buy it in case the other 10%. If no one agrees with that approach then 90% of sales will be EVs.

I am sure no one cares about my story and rightfully so. I just wish a certain segment of our population took that same approach instead of using the sovereignty of the federal government to mandate, outlaw, or eliminate someone’s choice about whatever the subject.

THAT’S WHY EVS ARE CONTROVERSIAL. It’s not the technology. Mark Twain once said “History Doesn't Repeat Itself, but It Often Rhymes.” Trying to control people never ends up working out based on history.

As for the environment, if we all did a little it would go much further than mandating a lot.

 

[gerlbaum]

Last point, if someone doesn’t like my approach, tough. Try inspiring people, being patient, and/or leadership to get people onboard with your approach.

 

[mllcb42]

THAT’S WHY EVS ARE CONTROVERSIAL. It’s not the technology

And that's the point. The technology is what the technology is and should be evaluated based on its actual capabilities.

If one wants to debate the controversy, have at it, but conflating the two doesn't do any good.

 

[wranglerbro]

Very well said sir . I wish I could put words together like you just did .
I started this thread after I ordered a Willys 3.6 because I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing an opportunity to upgrade from a traditional gas powered power plant .

Sure you did....

 

[KarlN]

A recurring theme around these forums is don’t get a 4xe, a diesel, or a 2.0 as they are not “tried and true”. So many of these folks are truly terrified to even consider purchasing anything with new tech. I’m excited to try out a new 4xe and I expect it to be a fine vehicle. If it’s not, no worries, I’ll sell/trade it for a 392. ?



“Life begins at the end of your comfort zone”
-Neale Donald Walsch

Love mine, it's been flawless so far with a bit of learning curve. We'll see what a Nevada winter does for it, It does stay in the garage at night!

 

[gerlbaum]

And that's the point. The technology is what the technology is and should be evaluated based on its actual capabilities.

If one wants to debate the controversy, have at it, but conflating the two doesn't do any good.

It’s not possible. We are actively shifting resources away. There is no debate. EVs won. You won’t be able to buy gas powered equipment in California in 1 year and won’t be able to buy new gas cars in 7 (along with Massachusetts). If you’re a business you’re not allowed to register pre 2007 diesel trucks in California.

There is no debate to be had, the decision was made. End of discussion.

 

[mllcb42]

It’s not possible. We are actively shifting resources away. There is no debate. EVs won. You won’t be able to buy gas powered equipment in California in 1 year and won’t be able to buy new gas cars in 7 (along with Massachusetts). If you’re a business you’re not allowed to register pre 2007 diesel trucks in California.

There is no debate to be had, the decision was made. End of discussion.

What does any of that have to do with if the 4xe will start when it's -22f out?

That all may be true, but the relevant question at hand here is the technical behavior of the vehicle in cold weather.

You're arguing about a completely different topic. It may be a valid argument, but it's an argument to a different conversation.

 

[jeepoch]

@mllcb42,

Matt you are correct I was over generalizing EV tech (intentionally). Like your metaphor suggests - use the right tool for the job. For short commuter use cases with all the right infrastructure, the EV has it's place. Right up until it's capacity is diminished beyond being specifically useful.

All battery capacities decay over time, due to chemical reactions, conditioning, loading etc. This is the point where a replacement is necessary. And yes all things eventually wear out. Entropy is a bitch.

What is this replacement cycle? Can it even be statistically averaged or even be marginally deterministic? There are so many dynamic variables involved.

As with anything new, some type of traction has to be obtained for that particular idea to grow. But this growth should happen due to both merit and acceptance rather than subsidies, mandates and taxes. Unfortunately, with EV rollout it's predominantly all the latter.

I'll never be adverse to new solutions as long as they provide better results (or at least some promising potential) than what they are attempting to replace. I conjecture that current battery technology does not. So the best way to prop EV up is to remove any competition. Clearly that is what's happening, by design, not by natural market selection.

With hydrogen fuel cells, Hydrogen is used to combust with Oxygen primarily producing power while emitting just H2O (water) and water vapor. In concept it's a great idea. In reality it's a logistical nightmare. Can you think Hindenburg? Still, it's a technology that has promise, as long as the infrastructure can be solved to safely transport the hydrogen fuel. Yes, no small task.

We should leave no stone unturned in our quest to reduce carbon footprint. But batteries are toxic, inefficient and expensive. We're just choosing to ignore these cons in our headlong endeavor to kill all things fossil fuel related.

Can we transition into (any) new technology carefully, economically and scientifically while not destroying the previous tech just to make it viable?

Jay

 

[OINC]

I am sure no one cares about my story and rightfully so. I just wish a certain segment of our population took that same approach instead of using the sovereignty of the federal government to mandate, outlaw, or eliminate someone’s choice about whatever the subject.

For clarification -- there are no federal mandates, laws, or elimination of choice about EV vs ICE. There are incentives for PHEVS, BEVs, and FCEVs. There are no sticks, only carrots.

There may be some state mandates coming to require all new vehicles to be zero emission (Newsom ordered one by 2035 -- not in seven years, but 13 -- but we'll see if that actually happens), but importantly they're not federal.

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