Auxiliary Battery Elimination

[AndySpill]

How do you know the changes aren't recognized on a coud start?

First of all I think you mean cold start. If I'm wrong do correct me. Rest assured, I'm not here to debate spelling errors.

So you ask, at least I think, how do I know that the dual AGM battery JL isn't testing what it thinks are each battery independently for its voltage, not simply with the engagement of an ESS event but at the point of cold crank? To rephrase, how do I know that one of these 6 tests isn't at cold crank with the other five happening when an ESS event is engaged?

I don't, anymore than I have to care about that because it doesn't make a difference. Here's why:

A diagnostic check, even if it happens, and it may very well not here (i.e. that test may not happen at cold crank,) that never reveals itself for defect, as is the case here, is not one worth discussing. To rephrase, a diagnostic system that detects issue but never reports it is, well, not a diagnostic system now is it?

It takes 6 (six) ESS events under one cold crank, where what the factory dual AGM battery JL thinks are tests of each of its batteries' voltages independently, (but are the same main battery when running ESS events with one battery on a factory dual AGM battery JL) where those voltages are the same, for the vehicle to conclude that a problem exists in the ESS system and produce error codes.

This identical voltage test, as you know, but others may not, is exactly what happens when running ESS events on a dual AGM battery JL with its Aux battery bypassed, as the tests only happen in this bypassed battery modification against the main battery, and surprise, surprise, the voltage of the main battery is the same as the voltage of the (wait for it) main battery when the vehicle thinks it's testing two distinct batteries, even though in this case it is expressly only testing one battery.

I, as you know, advocate that people who choose to run one battery on factory dual AGM battery JLs turn ESS off at the button: either by pressing it or buying tech to have that done for you.

It's you who thinks it's fine to run ESS events on one battery in the factory dual AGM battery JL. And maybe you're right that this is okay. I'm not willing to make that leap and you know that Foster. And we can disagree on why (me erroring on the side of caution to not deplete the cranking battery) while not disagreeing on the fact that this is each of our positions.

With me so far?

So, if I advocate turning ESS off when running with one battery on a factory dual AGM battery JL, (and I do) and it takes 6 of these tests under one cold crank for ESS to be shut off and show the owner operator this ESS off state, and one of these tests happens at cold crank (which may or may not be the case, I simply don't know but will give you the benefit of the doubt that it does,) it's going to take 5 more tests that are never going to happen during that driving session, and that only happen when an ESS event is engaged, for this test to fail before a diagnostic condition is revealed to the owner/operator. And these 5 tests aren't going to happen, if people follow my advice, because ESS has been turned off.

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[THAW]

First of all I think you mean cold start. If I'm wrong to correct me. Rest assured, I'm not here to debate spelling errors.

So you ask, at least I think, how do I know that the dual AGM battery JL isn't testing what it thinks are each battery independently for its voltage, not simply with the engagement of an ESS event but at the point of cold crank? To rephrase, how do I know that one of these 6 tests isn't at cold crank with the other five happening when an ESS event is engaged?

I don't, anymore than I have to care about that because it doesn't make a difference. Here's why:

A diagnostic check, even if it happens, and it may very well not here (i.e. that test may not happen at cold crank,) that never reveals itself for defect, as is the case here, is not one worth discussing. To rephrase, a diagnostic system that detects issue but never reports it is, well, not a diagnostic system now is it?

It takes 6 (six) ESS events under one cold crank, where what the factory dual AGM battery JL thinks are tests of each of its batteries' voltages independently, (but are the same main battery when running ESS events with one battery on a factory dual AGM battery JL) where those voltages are the same, for the vehicle to conclude that a problem exists in the ESS system and produce error codes.

This identical voltage test, as you know, but others may not, is exactly what happens when running ESS events on a dual AGM battery JL with its Aux battery bypassed, as the tests only happen in this bypassed battery modification against the main battery, and surprise, surprise, the voltage of the main battery is the same as the voltage of the (wait for it) main battery when the vehicle thinks it's testing two distinct batteries, even though in this case it is expressly only testing one battery.

I, as you know, advocate that people who choose to run one battery on factory dual AGM battery JLs turn ESS off at the button: either by pressing it or buying tech to have that done for you.

It's you who thinks it's fine to run ESS events on one battery in the factory dual AGM battery JL. And maybe you're right that this is okay. I'm not willing to make that leap and you know that Foster. And we can disagree on why (me erroring on the side of caution to not deplete the cranking battery) while not disagreeing on the fact that this is each of our positions.

With me so far?

So, if I advocate turning ESS off when running with one battery on a factory dual AGM battery JL, (and I do) and it takes 6 of these tests under one cold crank for ESS to be shut off and show the owner operator this ESS off state, and one of these tests happens at cold crank (which may or may not be the case, I simply don't know but will give you the benefit of the doubt that it does,) it's going to take 5 more tests that are never going to happen during that driving session, and that only happen when an ESS event is engaged, for this test to fail before a diagnostic condition is revealed to the owner/operator. And these 5 tests aren't going to happen, if people follow my advice, because ESS has been turned off.

So, we agree, your original statement ("...there is no check by the vehicle that Fuse 42 was pulled or the Aux battery was disconnected...") is not true.

Hopefully, you'll refrain from posting that misinformation in the future.

 

[AndySpill]

So, we agree, your original statement ("...there is no check by the vehicle that Fuse 42 was pulled or the Aux battery was disconnected...") is not true.

Hopefully, you'll refrain from posting that misinformation in the future.

Nope but nice try. We don't know if there is a check that Fuse 42 was pulled or the Aux battery was disconnected at cold crank and there probably isn't. That 6 ESS events check manifests after 6 ESS events, not 5, suggesting one was done at cold crank. Of course it could really be a seven ESS events check, where one is at cold crank but the point is, given my advice, clearly stated, that you turn ESS off with the aux battery bypass, and in this context, this check isn't going to happen, as I said.

You would have point if I had not suggested to turn ESS off in this situation. Go read above.

I consider it unlikely, that a Stellantis engineer effect this check upon cold crank. In the factory configuration the batteries have been sitting in parallel with the vehicle parked , equaling out their voltages by virtue of this electrical connection. It's probably a suboptimal time to check them.

But that said, you want to argue that a check that may happen upon cold crank (and probably doesn't) that never manifests itself to the owner operator when people follow my advice to turn ESS off with an Aux battery bypass, then I suggest you get a life. Debate with someone else that a check that maybe happens at cold crank, that nobody is notified of happens. It's like debating if a falling tree in the forest that nobody is around for miles to witness makes a sound. It's like saying I was reckless or wrong for telling people that it's okay to jump out of a flying plane, provided "they have training, and two shoots, the emergency one prepared by a licensed packer," the analogy here, which you probably don't get being "to turn ESS off."

We are all students of Jerry's @Jebiruph. He did the research and published the findings. At least I can admit that and hopefully explain to novices his conclusions.

Hopefully, you'll refrain from posting that misinformation in the future.

Hopefully you'll pick on legitimate errors of others. My statements are true under the guidelines I gave. You're the first person I've ever heard talk about a pre cold crank test of both batteries for voltage differences. I think you came up with it as a desperate play to my telling you that this statement of yours below is wrong if you turn ESS off as I suggest, that even on the wild chance that it's true makes no difference. Nobody finds out about it using my guidelines; there are no dash messages, no errors thrown.

Next time read my posts completely before trying to find errors in them.

Not true. The vehicle detects the changes as evidenced by the 6 ESS event per ignition cycle limit.

With all this time you have to try to find my mistakes Foster you'd think you could originate a thread here every so often. You have 1485 posts to 2 threads. I'd be curious who even comes close to that 740ish ratio.

 

[Mguy]

As a reminder, because the electrical experts in this thread keep forgetting,

The "SIX" electrical system testing limit was determined entirely from the previous six years of forum discussion which conclusively established that six angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Now, again please, what's relevant for JL owners? I keep forgetting.

 

[AndySpill]

If you don't follow my advice @THAW is correct.

Then again, if you don't follow my advice that you should not jump out of flying plane without training, two shoots, and the emergency one packed by a licensed packer then @THAW would too be correct that my advice to jump out of a plane would be ill advised.

 

[Red Rubi 22]

 

[jeepingib]

 

[THAW]

As a reminder, because the electrical experts in this thread keep forgetting,

The "SIX" electrical system testing limit was determined entirely from the previous six years of forum discussion which conclusively established that six angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Now, again please, what's relevant for JL owners? I keep forgetting.

The 6 ESS event limit after bypassing the AUX (ESS) battery and PCR is a verified fact; it's been duplicated by a forum vendor specializing in JL electrical/battery accessories (who discussed the limit with a contact at Jeep).

It's also evident in JScan

 

[AndySpill]

The 6 ESS event limit after bypassing the AUX (ESS) battery and PCR is a verified fact; it's been duplicated by a forum vendor specializing in JL electrical/battery accessories (who discussed the limit with a contact at Jeep).

It's also evident in JScan

You're a piece of work Foster.

First off @Mguy never said otherwise, in fact he expressly referenced this 6 ESS event voltage test.

...and yet you need to show him that it's verified fact? That's the kind of retort that people give to contrarians, not those whose thoughts jibe with your own and fact like @Mguy's did.

Second, you referenced Shane's @Genesis Offroad 6 ESS event voltage test findings, which never reference a similar pre cold crank test that you hypothesize, that by the way would make no sense to conduct because, as already stated, the batteries have been sitting in parallel while the dual AGM JL has been parked and at rest, and by the nature of parallel connections, voltage difference that may exist between the batteries when the vehicle was turned off often have ample time to equalize.

So your suggesting that a pre cold crank voltage test, that assumes problems when the two batteries' independent voltages are (near) equal be done at cold crank when (wait for it) the two batteries voltages are apt to be (near) equal?

The short version: you sit on this forum waiting to pounce. Your knowledge is limited by your ability to put facts together to form rationale arguments, and when your attempts at correcting others backfire, you offer brain farts like a pre cold crank test that even if it happened, no owner/operator is going to be made aware of its failure on if the they turn ESS off like I said with an Aux battery bypass.

Here's a better approach. Originate content here. Or maybe take the time to offer explanations to novices here like I do and let others pounce on you that your attempt to be thorough resulted in more words than you care to, and otherwise aren't forced to read, or contain errors when they don't.

 

[mbrose1994]

I love the practical experience and advice of many. And also the raw honesty of some mistakes that help us newer Jeep owners avoid the same.

Please realize that perfect wording is exceedingly rare and generally impractical. And covering every possible gnarly detail is a tiresome burden.

I will most likely need much grace and forgiveness from time to time, especially if ranting about an unpleasant Jeep surprise. Please consider the same for everyone here.

 

[THAW]

You're a piece of work Foster.

First off @Mguy never said otherwise, in fact he expressly referenced this 6 ESS event voltage test.

...and yet you need to show him that it's verified fact? That's the kind of retort that people give to contrarians, not those whose thoughts jibe with your own and fact like @Mguy's did.

Second, you referenced Shane's @Genesis Offroad 6 ESS event voltage test findings, which never reference a similar pre cold crank test that you hypothesize, that by the way would make no sense to conduct because, as already stated, the batteries have been sitting in parallel while the dual AGM JL has been parked and at rest, and by the nature of parallel connections, voltage difference that may exist between the batteries when the vehicle was turned off often have ample time to equalize.

So your suggesting that a pre cold crank voltage test, that assumes problems when the two batteries' independent voltages are (near) equal be done at cold crank when (wait for it) the two batteries voltages are apt to be (near) equal?

The short version: you sit on this forum waiting to pounce. Your knowledge is limited by your ability to put facts together to form rationale arguments, and when your attempts at correcting others backfire, you offer brain farts like a pre cold crank test that even if it happened, no owner/operator is going to be made aware of its failure on if the they turn ESS off like I said with an Aux battery bypass.

Here's a better approach. Originate content here. Or maybe take the time to offer explanations to novices here like I do and let others pounce on you that your attempt to be thorough resulted in more words than you care to, and otherwise aren't forced to read, or contain errors when they don't.

I can't keep up with all the misinformation you post.

Before writing that utter nonsense about battery voltage a third time, test your hypothesis on your vehicle. Let your JL sit as long as you like, switch the ignition to "ON", measure the voltage of the connected batteries, then remove the CR[an}K battery positive terminal connector to measure the separated AUX (ESS) battery voltage and the separated CR[an}K battery voltage.

Then ask yourself if you should continue advising people about JL electrics.

 

[AndySpill]

I can't keep up with all the misinformation you post.

Post it or shut up. This from the man who postulates an irrelevant pre cold crank battery test might be happening.

Before writing that utter nonsense about battery voltage a third time, test your hypothesis on your vehicle. Let your JL sit as long as you like, switch the ignition to "ON", measure the voltage of the connected batteries, then remove the CR[an}K battery positive terminal connector to measure the separated AUX (ESS) battery voltage and the separated CR[an}K battery voltage.

Wait, are we finally off the fact that the JL isn't performing the tests you felt the need to correct me on, and you were wrong about, because you were so quick to try to find a mistake than read that I, as you well know, advocate to turn ESS off where such tests occur? You didn't read that?

Ok, how many times have we gone back and forth on this forum that I advocate turning ESS off with one battery and you don't? Whether someone here is actually right or wrong on this you cannot deny that you are well aware of my position here.

So let's move on. You were wrong about a test happening under the advise I gave. We all make mistakes.

Now your arguing with me about a hypothetical that you postulated might be happening at pre crank, that makes no sense to happen then because of all the times that the batteries are likely to be at or near the same voltage that is the time. Whatever the difference in voltages between the two, if any at this time, there is no better time, outside the presence of a charging source, and connected to each other in parallel, for those batteries to equalize than then.

The answer to this question: "what is the single worst time to test each battery individually for voltage difference is, "an instant after the batteries have been sitting in parallel with the vehicle parked and are then isolated from all else and tested. "

Then ask yourself if you should continue advising people about JL electrics.

Ok, self, should I keep I advising people about JL electronics, self? Self says yes.

Funny Foster, it's not like your here explaining this stuff to those not in the know. Perfect example,: how many of these people get your use of the CR[an}K like nomenclature on the back of the PDC panel? Tell you what, what don't you advise and I'll sit back like you wish and critique your comments.

 

[THAW]

You were wrong about a test happening under the advise I gave.

I was 100% correct.

Reread your post. You told a user who you acknowledged had ESS enabled that when it was enabled his JL didn't have a test to determine the AUX (ESS) battery was disconnected or the PCR fuse was absent. That was, and still is, false. That you frequently recommend disabling ESS does not make your false statement true.

Perhaps it's another case of your intended meaning being corrupted by your convoluted writing style.

 

[THAW]

The answer to this question: "what is the single worst time to test each battery individually for voltage difference is, "an instant after the batteries have been sitting in parallel with the vehicle parked and are then isolated from all else and tested. "

And yet Jeep engineers designed a test of the separated AUX (ESS) battery at cold crank.

 

[Nash_Dj]

Wow, these are some serious messages records !!!
Who are you Guys...?

And why am I so stubborn and reading your arguing for last few days?
Frankly, not even sure what are the two of you arguing about - your points are totally "lost in translation".
Instead of posting here some stupid GIFs myself to express my feeling towards this nonsense, I am asking you both to make your final SINGLE statement and post your opinion/advice about the issue, and then kindly please knock it off...

Thank you.

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