Jeep Clubs Liability?

[tomk62]

My question is if I, as the guy in front, have any liability for what someone behind me chooses to do? And how do other groups deal with this issue. We have no spotting, towing or winching training. What is there liability there?

I don't think there's a simple answer to this.

If someone departs from your lead, goes off trail and something happens to them? probably not.

If someone follows your lead 100%, and something happens to them? maybe.

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[Deleted User 38384]

You generally can't be sued for your 401k or other employer sponsored retirement plans, the ERISA act protects that. I worked in investing/401k specifically for a number of years, unless the account iteslf is part of a fraud of some sort you are generally protected. Your primary home is also typically protected.

Umbrella insurance is generally affordable, but it typically requires you to have higher than the typical minimums on your auto insurance (after which the umbrella policy kicks in) which can add to the price significantly.

I know various leagues, clubs, and other non-profits have a general liability insurance which is going to be cheaper than a personal umbrella policy. You may want to look in that direction.

Besides all of the other good recommendations on page 1, I would recommend creating a trust and putting all of your personal items inside of the trust. Home, auto, any large purchases you own, RV's, whatever.

The benefit of having the trust own your house and your cars and all of your other stuff Is that if someone wants to sue you personally, they can't take your house or your cars or anything they are owned by the trust, and you are only named on it.

Also too whenever you kick the bucket, and you want to give your house to your kids or your cars to a family member, or even if you're still alive, you just name them in the trust and there's no penalty taxes or extra cost owed.

Honestly this is something good for everyone to do, not just someone in TC position.

 

[Jeep Wick]

I'm not a fan of using a personal umbrella policy for a semi-organized club activity. I'd suggest you start by minimizing the chance of getting sued by having every person going out on the trails sign a release form indicating they are aware of the risks, have the capability to operate their vehicle off-road, even self-select the level of trails they're comfortable driving, etc., etc. Have a lawyer write out the release or ask one of the organized Jeep groups for their version. In your situation, you should also make sure that anyone leading a ride is doing so as a volunteer and not in any official role. This won't stop anyone from suing you but at least you'll have a baseline of protection to start. The group should consider whether they need some sort of liability insurance that covers these and other risks as opposed to individuals doing so.

This. I'm not a lawyer, but an iron-clad liability release would be the best way. Have everyone sign it and even make it part of your bylaws.

 

[Ratbert]

I'm a member of a club that's been around since the '50s. Add far as I know we don't have insurance for crap like that. Nobody signs a release, but there's a possibility of that for the week-long thing we do each summer that requires payment.

 

[Mgg253]

JustMy question is if I, as the guy in front, have any liability for what someone behind me chooses to do? And how do other groups deal with this issue. We have no spotting, towing or winching training. What is there liability there?

Your question is one that we cannot definitively answer. Why? Because it would most likely be a question for a trier of fact (aka a juror). Trust, if a serious injury or death occurs an attorney can bring any line of reasoning to a trial to assert what you did negligent, a jury would decide if they agree. Picked the wrong line? Probably a tough argument. Used improper winching techniques, no training on how to winch? Higher likelihood to find you liable. There will be liability defenses, such as assumption of risk, but bad (sympathetic) facts/injuries may cloud an otherwise impartial jurors thoughts.

I’m not an attorney, this is not legal advice and you probably shouldn’t trust me at all, but I’ve been apart and managed 100’s of litigated auto claims.

As for 401k question - typically protected asset class… typically. Do something egregious enough, all bets may be off.

 

[Diesel1776]

I'm not a fan of using a personal umbrella policy for a semi-organized club activity. I'd suggest you start by minimizing the chance of getting sued by having every person going out on the trails sign a release form indicating they are aware of the risks, have the capability to operate their vehicle off-road, even self-select the level of trails they're comfortable driving, etc., etc. Have a lawyer write out the release or ask one of the organized Jeep groups for their version. In your situation, you should also make sure that anyone leading a ride is doing so as a volunteer and not in any official role. This won't stop anyone from suing you but at least you'll have a baseline of protection to start. The group should consider whether they need some sort of liability insurance that covers these and other risks as opposed to individuals doing so.

This is the safest, smartest and cheapest route IMO. Solid advice.

 

[Mgg253]

I'm a member of a club that's been around since the '50s. Add far as I know we don't have insurance for crap like that. Nobody signs a release, but there's a possibility of that for the week-long thing we do each summer that requires payment.

I need to make it to some meetings if you’re talking about mile high! It’s just so far to drive. I think you guys rely on not have s—-bags and from what I’ve read, you all teach and practice safe operations

 

[MtCamper]

Mgg253, Wouldn't my vehicle or homeowners insurance apply in most instances?

 

[MtCamper]

Diesel1776, I checked and an umbrella for me would be @$500/year. I own motorboats and rental property.

 

[Ratbert]

I need to make it to some meetings if you’re talking about mile high! It’s just so far to drive. I think you guys rely on not have s—-bags and from what I’ve read, you all teach and practice safe operations

I'm thinking they teach that at their week-long All 4 Fun, but I'm not aware of classes other than that.

Yeah, their parent club meetings are an hour away for me. I don't attend a crapload of those since I focus more on our patrol. Had dinner with three couples from it last night. Exceptional way to make really good friends.

 

[Mgg253]

Mgg253, Wouldn't my vehicle or homeowners insurance apply in most instances?

Yes your auto insurance would in most cases (sorry can’t give a 100% cause too many possibilities) home owners, unlikely. Then you have to just assess if you have enough coverage.

a lot of people think they are protected with state minimum (required) coverage - if you have a nickel to your name, you’re mistaken. State mins for property are typically 25k or less - name one person on this forum that bought a new JL for 25k or less. Injury coverage is 30k or less. That MIGHT cover an ER bill, but not on a serious injury.

I carry 250/500/250. So 250/500 injury, 250 property. Then have $1m umbrella. In essence I’m covered for 99.8% of accidents I may be in.

 

[runningshoes]

Yes your auto insurance would in most cases (sorry can’t give a 100% cause too many possibilities) home owners, unlikely. Then you have to just assess if you have enough coverage.

a lot of people think they are protected with state minimum (required) coverage - if you have a nickel to your name, you’re mistaken. State mins for property are typically 25k or less - name one person on this forum that bought a new JL for 25k or less. Injury coverage is 30k or less. That MIGHT cover an ER bill, but not on a serious injury.

I carry 250/500/250. So 250/500 injury, 250 property. Then have $1m umbrella. In essence I’m covered for 99.8% of accidents I may be in.

I'm assuming you're answering relative to anything happening to his own Jeep, not if someone else in a different Jeep takes a roll down a trail and decides to sue?

 

[Mgg253]

I'm assuming you're answering relative to anything happening to his own Jeep, not if someone else in a different Jeep takes a roll down a trail and decides to sue?

yeah, I suppose I was thinking along the lines of winching someone, or otherwise using your vehicle

 

[roaniecowpony]

This discussion made me think about this horrible accident on Pinyon Mtn Trail near Ocotillo Wells CA. This spotter appears to have given unclear or incorrect signals to the driver, resulting in her serious injury. She was eventually airlifted out by a rescue team.

 

[Ratbert]

This discussion made me think about this horrible accident on Pinyon Mtn Trail near Ocotillo Wells CA. This spotter appears to have given unclear or incorrect signals to the driver, resulting in her serious injury. She was eventually airlifted out by a rescue team.

WTF was that spotter doing with his hands?

In our club the spotters explicitly ask if you want their assistance every time. If you don't confirm you don't get assistance.

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