You wanted cheaper prices, right?

[Whaler27]

I'd agree, but only if 3 generations of "hard work" prior had led to some semblance of generational wealth in this country for the common man, and it hadn't produced some of the dumbest, poorest, most dependent, and most violent people who face fewer choices than ever.

I don't sympathize with "hard working martyrdom". Just because someone spent way too much time at work doesn't mean they have a right to criticize others who don't see either the philosophical or economical value in that. Some jobs more than others.

Yeah, I can see spending 80+ hours per week in a residency program to be a surgeon. The outcome looks like making $450k/year and having the time and resources to live a very meaningful life through work. That person likely wanted to become a surgeon. How many people want to become a Manufacturing Specialist II , graveyard shift?

Spending 80 hours per week digging in a coal mine? Driving a truck? Bolting dashboards to a firewall? You're starting to lose me on the on this idea that people need to throw their best years away to work, unless they love doing it and would continue doing it if they were offered a better job that paid a lot more.

I’m not suggesting people should work just to work. There’s nothing inherently virtuous about sacrificing your life to a job.

Having said that, the guy who chose to be the one bolting the dash to the firewall signed up for that, right? Nobody held a gun to his head at 16 and said this is your destiny and, once you get there you’re stuck there forever. He had options, and he still has options.

One of my closest friends worked as a commercial diver in Japan in his late teens and early twenties. Then he was seriously injured and the subsequent surgeries and rehabilitation/recovery took almost 18 months. He used his down time to study english and visit the US. He later returned to the US to study, with trips back to Japan for alternating quarters to earn money for tuition. He eventually graduated from one of our state universities, returned to japan, and became a very successful businessman. He completely reinvented himself at almost thirty years old, and he did it entirely on his own, with no support from family or the government.

My wife worked as a waitress for many years. When she retired the guy who was managing the restaurant was an immigrant from India. He had started as a dishwasher in that restaurant nearly twenty years earlier, having arrived in the US with less than $200 to his name. We later learned that he was also working as a night janitor for a local college, which entitled him to free tuition at that school. He eventually earned his BA in business and quit the janitor job. Five years after my wife left the restaurant he left the manager’s position, because he and his wife had purchased a local business. In thirty years he progressed from poor immigrant dishwasher to wealthy business man. That path isn’t for everybody, of course, and it certainly isn’t for me, but it’s available to anybody, as are a near infinite number of others like it. I see jobs everywhere. The world is full of choices, and we’re all free to make them.

What I have never felt free to do is stay in the same job while demanding that I work 20% less and get paid 20% more. I just can’t wrap my head around that.

I don’t disagree with your comment about creating some of the dumbest, most dependent, most violent people. Where we appear to disagree is on whether raising wages, reducing work hours, and deemphasizing personal responsibility is the solution to reverse that trend.

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[NWJeepr]

What I have never felt free to do is stay in the same job while demanding that I work 20% less and get paid 20% more. I just can’t wrap my head around that.

And…you don’t have to. It’s not your job, or your business. Right?

 

[Whaler27]

The Silverados and Sierras are made both in the US and Mexico...so any given trim you buy could be either MIM or MIA...so the guys at GM-Trucks.com started a thread tracking issues on trucks of each origin, and so far, the MIM trucks are winning big time. Significantly fewer quality issues.

Discouraging. Sadly, not surprising.

 

[Whaler27]

And…you don’t have to. It’s not your job, or your business. Right?

Right. If I don’t like it, and I can’t change it, I can work elsewhere. My choices are to go compete where the contribution I’m willing to make will support the lifestyle I want, or reduce the cost of my lifestyle. My present employer, whoever that might be, is under no moral obligation to satisfy my desire to earn more than my contribution is worth to him/her/them.

People keep telling me the “American Dream” is a fiction, but I see many examples of it around me like those above. The success rate of war-displaced Vietnamese has been extraordinary. We still see people earning citizenship through military service and going on to dramatically improve their lives. As I said, a near infinite variety of routes to financial success For those willing to work and sacrifice. Those unwilling to work or sacrifice are much less likely to succeed, obviously. We have a growing number of people who think success is somehow owed to them, as though it is a birthright. Success can be earned by any healthy, high-functioning person, but we can’t afford to bestow it on those who choose not to earn it.

If the Mexican plants are building better vehicles the solution is for the American plants to do better work.

 

[five9dak]

My experience with hiring outsourced engineers is they lie about their competency and you end up spending more money and time correcting issues.

 

[siggy]

Nope.



Work ethic isn’t unique to military units, and I never suggested it was.

And I’m all about choice. I don’t care how much you work. If you wish to work less, find a job where you can work less. Change companies. Lower your standard of living. Don’t buy $50,000 jeeps… whatever you choose is fine with me. If the balance in France suits you better you can even move there. Do whatever you need to do to find your balance.

I truly don’t care what others do to find their balance as long as it doesn't adversely impact me. But if UAW continues to receive large wage increases that are completely unrelated to job performance or productivity it will eventually price their products out of the market. There has to be some relationship between the value of a worker’s contribution and the amount they get paid.

I didn’t want to let down any team I was on, whether I was picking strawberries, playing school sports, working in my profession, or living life. The team concept is a reminder that not everything is about yourself, or at least it was for many in my generation. And yes, we were regularly reminded of how easy we had it, and that was true. You may think stories of the depression are hyperbole and bullshit, but it was a real thing with plenty of suffering and no meaningful government intervention to mitigate the misery. That came later. During the depression, people would work (if they could find work) starve, or rely on the generosity of their neighbors… So we had it much easier than my parents and grandparents generations, and I was grateful for that, but I never felt the world owed me anything. If I didn’t like a job, and I couldn’t improve my circumstance, I got a different job. Whining about hard work, or the amount of work, was not a life strategy for anybody I respected.

I‘ve hired a lot of people over the last twenty years, and there are some undeniable recent trends, few of which are favorable from my perspective, but I still see young applicants who grew up with a good work ethic, including most kids who grew up on farms and ranches, and the children of recent immigrants.

I could give two shits about people who feel “stressed” by a 36 hour work week. If they can find employment where they can earn a satisfactory living working only 20 hour weeks, then power to ‘em. I just don’t want them on my team. Most importantly, I don’t want to hear them whining when they get paid less than the guy who works more, learns faster, and produces/contributes more.

I didn’t walk uphill both ways, but when I bought my first house the thirty year fixed mortgage rate was about 10%, and I had to save for a long time before I got to the point where I could qualify to buy a home. For many in my generation that meant driving a beater and living in a dump for years in order to save a downpayment. Houses were much cheaper, of course, but wages were low too. Minimum wage was less than $3 Back then. Last summer I saw signs advertising $18 per hour to start at Taco Bell! That’s over 600% of the minimum wage I remember at 21, and houses here haven't increased in price more than six times. Of course, in the 1980s and 1990s nobody expected part time work at a fast food restaurant to be a family supporting job either…

There have always been driven people, lazy people, and everything in between. What’s most different is that lazy people didn’t used to feel entitled to be promoted and paid at the same rate as the people who busted their butts. They generally saw the equity in that particular cause and effect.

I’m reminded of one of my favorite lines from Animal House: Dean Wormer looked at Flounder and said, “Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.”

Flounder understood the value of his contribution. He didn’t expect to be running the show.

You didn't suggest it? "...but I don’t think that message resonates with most modern Americans outside of the military."

C'mon now.

And you did EXACTLY what I said. Went back to the ole interest rate chant. Clearly there is a gap; allow me to assist.. https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-income-ratio/

Next up is the cost of education. I could go on, but you clearly don't care to try to understand and rather claim younger generations are lazy.

 

[cosmokenney]

My experience with hiring outsourced engineers is they lie about their competency and you end up spending more money and time correcting issues.

Same. And I mean every single time. Our retention rate is 0.00%

 

[Whaler27]

You didn't suggest it? "...but I don’t think that message resonates with most modern Americans outside of the military."

C'mon now.

And you did EXACTLY what I said. Went back to the ole interest rate chant. Clearly there is a gap; allow me to assist.. https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-income-ratio/

Next up is the cost of education. I could go on, but you clearly don't care to try to understand and rather claim younger generations are lazy.

Waaaa.

If you're suggesting the current generation has it harder than previous generations, I'm not buying, and neither is anybody else outside your generation. Everything about my kids' life experience, from the behavior standards enforced in grade school, to the lowering of academic standards, to the general rules of accountability were softened or muted. Assaultive bullies remained in school, academic expectations declined, the length and number of school days declined, and everybody got a trophy, regardless of performance. Protecting self-esteem became the #1 priority, while academics, rigorous testing of minds and bodies, and development of useful life skills fell to distant second, third, and fourth priorities. I can't tell you how many times my kids came home from school with lessons in math, science, and English that were either wrong, painfully dumbed-down, or both. They had several brilliant and committed teachers over 12 years, thank goodness, but the vast majority were mediocre to terrible. Many spoke terrible English, and even sub-par academic performance was rewarded with honors grades. Everybody moved forward. Failure was all but impossible. The "gifted" math class was a grade behind the mainstream math class when I was the same grade. Our kids became academically competitive because my wife and I aggressively corrected and augmented their education. (The school tested "academic readiness" at the beginning and end of every academic year. For three years running our kids started the school year three grades above level, and finished the year one grade above level. Basically, the public school system gradually reduced/retarded the progress we made over the summer.)

If you don't think the current generation is more needy, more whiney, less driven, and less resilient/durable there's a truckload of books on the topic, including some very favorably reviewed management and leadership books describing how we might coddle young adults into productivity. You might start with "Not Everyone Gets a Trophy". It's actually much more encouraging than the title suggests. It suggests that the current generation might have the tools to become the most productive generation ever, they just need especially gentle, encouraging, directive, handling. I don't have the patience for it.

 

[Heimkehr]

My experience with hiring outsourced engineers is they lie about their competency and you end up spending more money and time correcting issues.

This is occurring, exactly as you describe, where my wife works. I'll skip the details, but they're easy to guess.

I joke with her that as long as it continues, her job security -- in the form of correcting the constant goofs of the "consultants" -- is assured.

That's no way to run a railroad, but here we are.

 

[NWJeepr]

Right. If I don’t like it, and I can’t change it, I can work elsewhere. My choices are to go compete where the contribution I’m willing to make will support the lifestyle I want, or reduce the cost of my lifestyle. My present employer, whoever that might be, is under no moral obligation to satisfy my desire to earn more than my contribution is worth to him/her/them.

People keep telling me the “American Dream” is a fiction, but I see many examples of it around me like those above. The success rate of war-displaced Vietnamese has been extraordinary. We still see people earning citizenship through military service and going on to dramatically improve their lives. As I said, a near infinite variety of routes to financial success For those willing to work and sacrifice. Those unwilling to work or sacrifice are much less likely to succeed, obviously. We have a growing number of people who think success is somehow owed to them, as though it is a birthright. Success can be earned by any healthy, high-functioning person, but we can’t afford to bestow it on those who choose not to earn it.

If the Mexican plants are building better vehicles the solution is for the American plants to do better work.

You’re kidding yourself if you think an auto worker, for example, is going to achieve “success” just by asking for a little more money. Labor is a negotiation in the US.

This is what I was getting at in my original reply. Just because someone worked their ass off for pennies or worked an entire lifetime just to float doesn’t mean others should suffer the same fate out of obligation.

 

[2nd 392]

Waaaa.

If you're suggesting the current generation has it harder than previous generations, I'm not buying, and neither is anybody else outside your generation. Everything about my kids' life experience, from the behavior standards enforced in grade school, to the lowering of academic standards, to the general rules of accountability were softened or muted. Assaultive bullies remained in school, academic expectations declined, the length and number of school days declined, and everybody got a trophy, regardless of performance. Protecting self-esteem became the #1 priority, while academics, rigorous testing of minds and bodies, and development of useful life skills fell to distant second, third, and fourth priorities. I can't tell you how many times my kids came home from school with lessons in math, science, and English that were either wrong, painfully dumbed-down, or both. They had several brilliant and committed teachers over 12 years, thank goodness, but the vast majority were mediocre to terrible. Many spoke terrible English, and even sub-par academic performance was rewarded with honors grades. Everybody moved forward. Failure was all but impossible. The "gifted" math class was a grade behind the mainstream math class when I was the same grade. Our kids became academically competitive because my wife and I aggressively corrected and augmented their education. (The school tested "academic readiness" at the beginning and end of every academic year. For three years running our kids started the school year three grades above level, and finished the year one grade above level. Basically, the public school system gradually reduced/retarded the progress we made over the summer.)

If you don't think the current generation is more needy, more whiney, less driven, and less resilient/durable there's a truckload of books on the topic, including some very favorably reviewed management and leadership books describing how we might coddle young adults into productivity. You might start with "Not Everyone Gets a Trophy". It's actually much more encouraging than the title suggests. It suggests that the current generation might have the tools to become the most productive generation ever, they just need especially gentle, encouraging, directive, handling. I don't have the patience for it.

So some think us prior gen didn’t have “obstacles”. My cousin got a BA in police science on the GI bill. Applied for an officer opening and passed the exam with a high 90’s %. The hired applicant barely passed but had other % qualifications. This per a Dept Captain family friend- not speculation….. applied for and got a parole officer position that required higher education.

 

[siggy]

Waaaa.

If you're suggesting the current generation has it harder than previous generations, I'm not buying, and neither is anybody else outside your generation. Everything about my kids' life experience, from the behavior standards enforced in grade school, to the lowering of academic standards, to the general rules of accountability were softened or muted. Assaultive bullies remained in school, academic expectations declined, the length and number of school days declined, and everybody got a trophy, regardless of performance. Protecting self-esteem became the #1 priority, while academics, rigorous testing of minds and bodies, and development of useful life skills fell to distant second, third, and fourth priorities. I can't tell you how many times my kids came home from school with lessons in math, science, and English that were either wrong, painfully dumbed-down, or both. They had several brilliant and committed teachers over 12 years, thank goodness, but the vast majority were mediocre to terrible. Many spoke terrible English, and even sub-par academic performance was rewarded with honors grades. Everybody moved forward. Failure was all but impossible. The "gifted" math class was a grade behind the mainstream math class when I was the same grade. Our kids became academically competitive because my wife and I aggressively corrected and augmented their education. (The school tested "academic readiness" at the beginning and end of every academic year. For three years running our kids started the school year three grades above level, and finished the year one grade above level. Basically, the public school system gradually reduced/retarded the progress we made over the summer.)

If you don't think the current generation is more needy, more whiney, less driven, and less resilient/durable there's a truckload of books on the topic, including some very favorably reviewed management and leadership books describing how we might coddle young adults into productivity. You might start with "Not Everyone Gets a Trophy". It's actually much more encouraging than the title suggests. It suggests that the current generation might have the tools to become the most productive generation ever, they just need especially gentle, encouraging, directive, handling. I don't have the patience for it.

Lol, nice factual support you've provided. I would venture to say most 5th graders today have learned more math than you did by the end of high school. I'm going to enjoy my avocado toast while you continue to yell at clouds.

 

[Whaler27]

You’re kidding yourself if you think an auto worker, for example, is going to achieve “success” just by asking for a little more money. Labor is a negotiation in the US.

This is what I was getting at in my original reply. Just because someone worked their ass off for pennies or worked an entire lifetime just to float doesn’t mean others should suffer the same fate out of obligation.

I understand that. What's frustrating, for me, is when the labor unions simultaneously contribute to decline in vehicle quality (because there is little real accountability) AND an increase in the price of a vehicle. I'm in favor of everybody being paid what they are worth AND everybody being well paid.

For those two conditions to coexist employees need to build great stuff and plenty of it.

When I was in my twenties two friends of mine were cutters (loggers). They made TONS of money -- a multiple of what I earned at the time -- because they "busheled' (meaning they were paid based upon the number of trees they dropped). All the cutters were paid well but, working together these two each earned more than twice what some of the other cutters made -- because the other guys did less. I never heard the others whining about not being paid as much, because they knew they didn't contribute as much.

 

[Whaler27]

Lol, nice factual support you've provided. I would venture to say most 5th graders today have learned more math than you did by the end of high school. I'm going to enjoy my avocado toast while you continue to yell at clouds.

I like the avocado-toast and cloud-yelling reference. Homer & Abe Simpson, I'm guessing -- but I'll match my education against the average US high school teacher all day long.

I was a distracted high school student, but even the "mainstream" kids like me finished Algebra 1, Geometry, and Algebra-2/Trigonometry in high school, so I was ready for differential & integral calculus when I started college. After that I was only required to take one quarter of statistics for my degree -- so I never claimed to be a math whiz.

Most of the teachers who are instructing my grandkids aren't rocket scientists either -- and I don't remember any future educators in any of my college math courses. I'm sure they must have been there somewhere, but all the people I actually got to know were studying pre-med, science, or engineering. The calculus book for non-science students was half as thick.

 

[Wbino]

It's almost like someone could have seen this coming..... Oh wait, this is exactly what I said was going to happen in the thread about the UAW strike stuff. When it's too expensive to produce vehicles here in the US, production will move to where labor is cheaper. This UAW leader may have won the battle to increase wages, but the auto industry has been laying off workers en masse ever since.

I guess you're not asking the boss for a raise anytime soon.

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