You wanted cheaper prices, right?

[NWJeepr]

Maybe that’s it, but I think there’s more to it. Society is changing, Americans are softening and work is less valued. We’ve built a generation that expects to work less and be given more. For a person who hasn’t worked fewer than 50 hour weeks in almost forty years, the UAW contract demands were shocking. I can’t imagine demanding that much for contributing that little.

I worked my ass off even when I was getting paid very little, and so did all of the guys on my team. We cared about the mission, we shared esprit de corps, and we were driven to succeed. Hard work was a shared cultural value, and none of us wanted to underperform and let the team down. We didn’t respect people who didn’t work hard and do their best, and we disdained whiners. I never saw anybody complain about the long hours, which almost always exceeded sixty hour weeks, and occasionally required much more.

We had it easy compared to my parents’ generation, as they survived the depression. Nothing was easy for them, and work wasn’t always available, so I always felt fortunate to be able to earn as much as I could work.

One of my sons is a surgeon. On the first day of his surgical residency he and all of the other interns were gathered in an auditorium for an introduction. During that introduction the chief discussed their next six years together. When he got to the long hours he said, “Congress has limited your work weeks to 80 hours, but you will frequently work more, because the job requires more. You have a lot to learn. You can do it in six years of 80 hour weeks, or twelve years of 40 hour weeks. Which would you prefer?” Obviously, it was a rhetorical question, but the point was made: suck it up and get to work. Surgical interns have no choice, but I don’t think that message resonates with most modern Americans outside of the military.

At my work we routinely get special funding for overtime. Fifteen years ago we put rules in place to prevent people from signing up for multiple overtime shifts before others had an opportunity to sign up for even one — because prior to that rule all of the available shifts would be filled within a day or two. We don’t have to worry about that anymore. Our new workforce is different. Today, many of those shifts never get filled, even if they’re posted for several weeks. They pay better than ever, but our newest generation is less willing to work. There are exceptions, but most expect to be rewarded more for contributing less. They also complain more. For us, the net impact is measurable: we need more employees to produce the same amount of work in a year, and we spend more on attorneys and labor litigation. I think the same thing is happening everywhere except, maybe, in surgery.

I'd agree, but only if 3 generations of "hard work" prior had led to some semblance of generational wealth in this country for the common man, and it hadn't produced some of the dumbest, poorest, most dependent, and most violent people who face fewer choices than ever.

I don't sympathize with "hard working martyrdom". Just because someone spent way too much time at work doesn't mean they have a right to criticize others who don't see either the philosophical or economical value in that. Some jobs more than others.

Yeah, I can see spending 80+ hours per week in a residency program to be a surgeon. The outcome looks like making $450k/year and having the time and resources to live a very meaningful life through work. That person likely wanted to become a surgeon. How many people want to become a Manufacturing Specialist II , graveyard shift?

Spending 80 hours per week digging in a coal mine? Driving a truck? Bolting dashboards to a firewall? You're starting to lose me on the on this idea that people need to throw their best years away to work, unless they love doing it and would continue doing it if they were offered a better job that paid a lot more.

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[SSgDan1009]

I bought a Jeep because I love it. It’s worth it to me. I don’t care who designs it.

Least we forget someone once designed a 2WD wrangler

 

[siggy]

Maybe that’s it, but I think there’s more to it. Society is changing, Americans are softening and work is less valued. We’ve built a generation that expects to work less and be given more. For a person who hasn’t worked fewer than 50 hour weeks in almost forty years, the UAW contract demands were shocking. I can’t imagine demanding that much for contributing that little.

I worked my ass off even when I was getting paid very little, and so did all of the guys on my team. We cared about the mission, we shared esprit de corps, and we were driven to succeed. Hard work was a shared cultural value, and none of us wanted to underperform and let the team down. We didn’t respect people who didn’t work hard and do their best, and we disdained whiners. I never saw anybody complain about the long hours, which almost always exceeded sixty hour weeks, and occasionally required much more.

We had it easy compared to my parents’ generation, as they survived the depression. Nothing was easy for them, and work wasn’t always available, so I always felt fortunate to be able to earn as much as I could work.

One of my sons is a surgeon. On the first day of his surgical residency he and all of the other interns were gathered in an auditorium for an introduction. During that introduction the chief discussed their next six years together. When he got to the long hours he said, “Congress has limited your work weeks to 80 hours, but you will frequently work more, because the job requires more. You have a lot to learn. You can do it in six years of 80 hour weeks, or twelve years of 40 hour weeks. Which would you prefer?” Obviously, it was a rhetorical question, but the point was made: suck it up and get to work. Surgical interns have no choice, but I don’t think that message resonates with most modern Americans outside of the military.

At my work we routinely get special funding for overtime. Fifteen years ago we put rules in place to prevent people from signing up for multiple overtime shifts before others had an opportunity to sign up for even one — because prior to that rule all of the available shifts would be filled within a day or two. We don’t have to worry about that anymore. Our new workforce is different. Today, many of those shifts never get filled, even if they’re posted for several weeks. They pay better than ever, but our newest generation is less willing to work. There are exceptions, but most expect to be rewarded more for contributing less. They also complain more. For us, the net impact is measurable: we need more employees to produce the same amount of work in a year, and we spend more on attorneys and labor litigation. I think the same thing is happening everywhere except, maybe, in surgery.

Your bias is palpable. So in your eyes those in the military are the only ones who understand hard work? Too cute! Such a joke.

I’ve worked my fair share of 100 hour weeks as a finance professional. No, what people are tired of is working 100 hours or other insane hours. You shouldn’t have to sell your sell soul to make a living. The rest of the developed world values their free time much more and have significantly more holidays.

Threads where old people complain about how this generation having it so good and being lazy, is, well, getting old. Geriatric says back in my day interest rates were double! Yeah, and the house cost a fraction of your household income back when you walked up hill both ways (hills still exist, ?). Home affordability, as just one example, is at an all time low. Yet, geriatrics just talk about the interest rate and gloss over the other, bigger, factor. 30 years ago it was common to have one income support a family and have a nice middle class life. Today, not so much.

 

[Jammer]

I'm tired of jobs going overseas I don't want Chinese crap anymore or Mexico if I can. I would rather have American made and if it cost me more so what that's the problem we're losing all these jobs. I'm not getting into politics but if Trump gets in the White House they'll be staying in America because he'll tax them so much like before that they can't afford to import them they'll have to make them here. I would rather buy American made if it cost me a little more you're not keep losing jobs to Mexico and China. Everything made in China is crap anyway. Last time he told them he'll text him 30% on every vehicle being imported and I know like Chevrolet all the parts are mostly are made in Mexico and shipped over here but we got to stop this we got to keep our jobs in America. A few people don't care they rather just buy cheap s*** and pay less that's fine look at the cars used to be made when they were made here in America look at the older cars how solid they were made how they held up so much better they were made with pride American pride

 

[Jammer]

Like I said I know a lot of Chevrolet parts are made in Mexico and shipped over here, but I live 30 minutes from the general motors plant that makes all the suburbans and tahoes. They have three shifts around the clock making them and it's been there for decades

 

[TheRaven]

Like I said I know a lot of Chevrolet parts are made in Mexico and shipped over here, but I live 30 minutes from the general motors plant that makes all the suburbans and tahoes. They have three shifts around the clock making them and it's been there for decades

The Silverados and Sierras are made both in the US and Mexico...so any given trim you buy could be either MIM or MIA...so the guys at GM-Trucks.com started a thread tracking issues on trucks of each origin, and so far, the MIM trucks are winning big time. Significantly fewer quality issues.

 

[STW]

I'd agree, but only if 3 generations of "hard work" prior had led to some semblance of generational wealth in this country for the common man, and it hadn't produced some of the dumbest, poorest, most dependent, and most violent people who face fewer choices than ever.

I don't sympathize with "hard working martyrdom". Just because someone spent way too much time at work doesn't mean they have a right to criticize others who don't see either the philosophical or economical value in that. Some jobs more than others.

Yeah, I can see spending 80+ hours per week in a residency program to be a surgeon. The outcome looks like making $450k/year and having the time and resources to live a very meaningful life through work. That person likely wanted to become a surgeon. How many people want to become a Manufacturing Specialist II , graveyard shift?

Spending 80 hours per week digging in a coal mine? Driving a truck? Bolting dashboards to a firewall? You're starting to lose me on the on this idea that people need to throw their best years away to work, unless they love doing it and would continue doing it if they were offered a better job that paid a lot more.

I appreciate the points Siggy, Whaler27, and NWJeepr are making. Good discussion. I'd only add that the recent generations of American workers also watched the 2008 crisis in real estate / loans /banking that had been developing for 10-15 years as both political parties in the US supported the idea that it didn't matter anymore if people could afford the houses they bought, and the key to making money was to bundle all the bad debts into derivatives and sell the contained-bundled bad debt off to someone else quickly. And when this eventually, and predictably, crashed the economy, no one was held to account and all the bad actors got protected, bailed out, rewarded, and are back at it again. There has always been fraud and cheating, and it has always been buyer-beware, but the last couple generations have watched the American mainstream formerly-trusted institutions foster fraud and cheating as a business model. Another example is old line mainstream banks making it their business model to make their profits off of customer fines and penalties, then figuring out how to set payment deadlines and notifications difficult in the right ways to make their customers fail and have to pay the penalties. You know this is how it is when you walk into a casino, but you used to expect to trust your bank, at least during the long post-war boom in the American economy. I'm early 60s so had a different view growing up; sometimes I think nothing has changed, but sometimes I think it's quite understandable when younger generations are deeply cynical about things my generation could believe in.

 

[DaltonGang]

I hope the Big Three auto makers all pull up shop and produce their products in other countries. I blame a lot of the increase in auto prices, and lack of quality squarely on the UAW.

 

[NWJeepr]

The Silverados and Sierras are made both in the US and Mexico...so any given trim you buy could be either MIM or MIA...so the guys at GM-Trucks.com started a thread tracking issues on trucks of each origin, and so far, the MIM trucks are winning big time. Significantly fewer quality issues.

They're also made in Canada. I'm looking at Silverados lately and found a bunch of brand new ones with VINs that start with 2... I assume that still means Canada.

The Silao plant in Mexico has had its ups and downs. I believe there was a labor dispute a while back which was settled and the workers paid more. Not surprised to hear it's producing good trucks. I've owned one from there myself and it had the quality I'd expect for that truck.

 

[NWJeepr]

I'm early 60s so had a different view growing up; sometimes I think nothing has changed, but sometimes I think it's quite understandable when younger generations are deeply cynical about things my generation could believe in.

I appreciate that you didn't jump in to disparage the younger generations. Deeply cynical, yes, they are. But I'd say not distrustful. They just have a very honest view about motive and the way things work.

 

[SargeDiesel]

$50k a year in India might buy you the next Einstein though, and maybe he can figure out how to fit the Hurricane I6 in a JL?

Or... lets start with getting two batteries to function properly together.

 

[roojacksid]

Resale matters...it doesn't matter if you are making enough that you can buy a Model S Plaid in one paycheck or you have to finance like regular people. We're talking $50-$100k purchases here. Absolutely no one is ok with buying something with that kind of price tag that's going to be worth $20k in three years. Even if you're the rich guy - cause when "the poor" can buy your beautiful "luxury sedan" on the used market for $20k...what's so special about it?

And i'm not seeing how the small savings on fuel are going to do anything at all to make up for resale value.

We definitely agree on FCA though. When I went shopping for a new truck, I ruled out RAM right off the bat because I don't want to be at the mercy of FCA for TWO of my vehicles. One is already more than enough. Otherwise a Rebel or TRX would have been on my shopping list.

I’m not challenging you - just curious if you were exaggerating, or do you really think a 3 year old model plaid will be selling for $20,000?

 

[TheRaven]

I’m not challenging you - just curious if you were exaggerating, or do you really think a 3 year old model plaid will be selling for $20,000?

Plaid, no. The $50-60k ones will be worth $20k in three years. The $80-100k ones will be worth $35k. Obviously these are estimates intended to make a point. It doesn't matter if your $80k car is worth $20k or $30k in 3 years...both instances are absolutely horrifying.

The overriding problem is that no one wants a used EV because there's no way to know when you're going to need to fork over $20k for a new battery. You also have no idea what other issues you've never heard of before are going to pop up. It's just way too early in the EV development saga for regular people to buy in.

 

[roojacksid]

Plaid, no. The $50-60k ones will be worth $20k in three years. The $80-100k ones will be worth $35k. Obviously these are estimates intended to make a point. It doesn't matter if your $80k car is worth $20k or $30k in 3 years...both instances are absolutely horrifying.

The overriding problem is that no one wants a used EV because there's no way to know when you're going to need to fork over $20k for a new battery. You also have no idea what other issues you've never heard of before are going to pop up. It's just way too early in the EV development saga for regular people to buy in.

Right on.

 

[Whaler27]

Your bias is palpable. So in your eyes those in the military are the only ones who understand hard work? Too cute! Such a joke.

I’ve worked my fair share of 100 hour weeks as a finance professional. No, what people are tired of is working 100 hours or other insane hours. You shouldn’t have to sell your sell soul to make a living. The rest of the developed world values their free time much more and have significantly more holidays.

Threads where old people complain about how this generation having it so good and being lazy, is, well, getting old. Geriatric says back in my day interest rates were double! Yeah, and the house cost a fraction of your household income back when you walked up hill both ways (hills still exist, ?). Home affordability, as just one example, is at an all time low. Yet, geriatrics just talk about the interest rate and gloss over the other, bigger, factor. 30 years ago it was common to have one income support a family and have a nice middle class life. Today, not so much.

Nope.



Work ethic isn’t unique to military units, and I never suggested it was.

And I’m all about choice. I don’t care how much you work. If you wish to work less, find a job where you can work less. Change companies. Lower your standard of living. Don’t buy $50,000 jeeps… whatever you choose is fine with me. If the balance in France suits you better you can even move there. Do whatever you need to do to find your balance.

I truly don’t care what others do to find their balance as long as it doesn't adversely impact me. But if UAW continues to receive large wage increases that are completely unrelated to job performance or productivity it will eventually price their products out of the market. There has to be some relationship between the value of a worker’s contribution and the amount they get paid.

I didn’t want to let down any team I was on, whether I was picking strawberries, playing school sports, working in my profession, or living life. The team concept is a reminder that not everything is about yourself, or at least it was for many in my generation. And yes, we were regularly reminded of how easy we had it, and that was true. You may think stories of the depression are hyperbole and bullshit, but it was a real thing with plenty of suffering and no meaningful government intervention to mitigate the misery. That came later. During the depression, people would work (if they could find work) starve, or rely on the generosity of their neighbors… So we had it much easier than my parents and grandparents generations, and I was grateful for that, but I never felt the world owed me anything. If I didn’t like a job, and I couldn’t improve my circumstance, I got a different job. Whining about hard work, or the amount of work, was not a life strategy for anybody I respected.

I‘ve hired a lot of people over the last twenty years, and there are some undeniable recent trends, few of which are favorable from my perspective, but I still see young applicants who grew up with a good work ethic, including most kids who grew up on farms and ranches, and the children of recent immigrants.

I could give two shits about people who feel “stressed” by a 36 hour work week. If they can find employment where they can earn a satisfactory living working only 20 hour weeks, then power to ‘em. I just don’t want them on my team. Most importantly, I don’t want to hear them whining when they get paid less than the guy who works more, learns faster, and produces/contributes more.

I didn’t walk uphill both ways, but when I bought my first house the thirty year fixed mortgage rate was about 10%, and I had to save for a long time before I got to the point where I could qualify to buy a home. For many in my generation that meant driving a beater and living in a dump for years in order to save a downpayment. Houses were much cheaper, of course, but wages were low too. Minimum wage was less than $3 Back then. Last summer I saw signs advertising $18 per hour to start at Taco Bell! That’s over 600% of the minimum wage I remember at 21, and houses here haven't increased in price more than six times. Of course, in the 1980s and 1990s nobody expected part time work at a fast food restaurant to be a family supporting job either…

There have always been driven people, lazy people, and everything in between. What’s most different is that lazy people didn’t used to feel entitled to be promoted and paid at the same rate as the people who busted their butts. They generally saw the equity in that particular cause and effect.

I’m reminded of one of my favorite lines from Animal House: Dean Wormer looked at Flounder and said, “Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.”

Flounder understood the value of his contribution. He didn’t expect to be running the show.

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