You wanted cheaper prices, right?

[TheRaven]

Do Firemen who are union go up ladders slower?
Do Cops who are union deserve less respect?
Teachers are mostly union they are teaching our children.
There is a reason companies resist unions....because they can't ride over everyone.
You on the other hand seem like a perfect employee. ?

My wife is a teacher, and for years hated the union herself. For good reason - they collected $1100 in dues each year, and every contract negotiation they just rolled over and let the administration have their way. She was on the verge of opting out when the state mandated that option. However a few years ago the union elected a new president, and everything has changed. Since then they have done a great job negotiating contracts and protecting the teachers...this is the way a union SHOULD work. But that's the problem - unions are pretty much exactly like the "big, evil corporations" they were created to protect us from - if they have good leadership, they do good things...if they have greedy leaders, they only make things worse.

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[PeatedWhisky]

Not true. You cite the metrics by which you make this claim, however you forget that modern generations' access to technology has made living life SO much easier. Yes, cars, houses, education and other luxuries are far more expensive now than they were for early Gen X and Boomers...but you forget that those generations never had things like smartphones, tablets, infotainment, super Wal-Marts, Texas Roadhouses, Amazon...and so on...so many conveniences that current generations could not survive without. Those previous generations didn't have TIME for a lot of that stuff because they needed to rest after a long day working in the foundry/mill/factory, then coming home and making sure dinner was provided and the house was kept up. That was life back then.

So yeah, financially things are a lot worse but that's not all there is to life. We have so much more time to ENJOY life, regardless of one's income level, because of all the tech that makes quick work of what used to be time-consuming and/or back-breaking work. Things were a lot cheaper for early Gen X and Boomers, but they also had to work a lot harder for the money to get those things.

Each generation has it better than the last, that's always been true and always will be, until the end.

It is true, It's just not linear nor absolute. Undoubtedly technology is and will continue to improve and make things easier. Every comprehensive measure I've seen, even social ones when you look at things like suicide rates, point to the same conclusion.

Also, I'd argue that none of those things are luxuries, certainly no one would argue that housing is. You may feel different about the rest, but as a Gen Xer son of a Boomer, they sure as hell weren't luxuries to those two generations, so if they are now, then case in point.

 

[siggy]

Not true. You cite the metrics by which you make this claim, however you forget that modern generations' access to technology has made living life SO much easier. Yes, cars, houses, education and other luxuries are far more expensive now than they were for early Gen X and Boomers...but you forget that those generations never had things like smartphones, tablets, infotainment, super Wal-Marts, Texas Roadhouses, Amazon...and so on...so many conveniences that current generations could not survive without. Those previous generations didn't have TIME for a lot of that stuff because they needed to rest after a long day working in the foundry/mill/factory, then coming home and making sure dinner was provided and the house was kept up. That was life back then.

So yeah, financially things are a lot worse but that's not all there is to life. We have so much more time to ENJOY life, regardless of one's income level, because of all the tech that makes quick work of what used to be time-consuming and/or back-breaking work. Things were a lot cheaper for early Gen X and Boomers, but they also had to work a lot harder for the money to get those things.

Each generation has it better than the last, that's always been true and always will be, until the end.

lol read what you wrote? Luxuries such as cars, houses, and education? Yes, transportation and shelter are luxuries these days. And then you compare that to electronics being cheaper? Haha, can’t make this sh!t up.

 

[Wbino]

I generally agree with your take, but you there are some things where data doesn't line up. The generation just hitting the workforce now is Gen Z, and the data (and my experience) shows them to be exceptionally hard workers. The generation you are referring too is old news and busy raising their own kids now so we won't hear much from them for a bit...

Also, it is in fact harder now than it was for previous generations. The cost of education and housing have dramatically increased relative to income. Gen Z is going to be the first generation in the history of our country to have things worse than the previous generation, that is probably not avoidable at this point. Anecdotally, I have one kid in college and another heading there soon, so I get to see some of this first hand, and it's hard for me to wrap my head around some of the issues they have to deal with.

For those ripping on India, I've been in software engineering for over 25years now and I have worked with literally thousands of Indians both in the US and offshore. The quality has dramatically improved, and the communication gaps have lessened. I don't think I can tell the difference anymore. I do think it's important to not offshore to another company, but to setup a business in India of your own (which is a non-trivial task). If that business offers a path to the US, you will get good candidates, and over time you have to focus on your reputation, it matters much more in India than the US.

I don't really expect Jeep to see much of a difference, they have a shitty culture and the location of their factories won't change that. That being said, lower costs will always create downward pressure on pricing, but at the end of the day, pricing is much more influenced by the market, and increasingly, government.

What so shiity about JEEP culture and the locations of their factories?
If they were made in WA would the exhaust smell like roses?

 

[PeatedWhisky]

What so shiity about JEEP culture and the locations of their factories?
If they were made in WA would the exhaust smell like roses?

I think you misread that. I said the location of their factories won't change their culture.

 

[Wbino]

I think you misread that. I said the location of their factories won't change their culture.

Capitalism is their culture, like every business.
Smile in your face until you cost them.

 

[2nd 392]

Probably tilt because they can't believe a boomer is paying with cash...including change. Probably after digging around in a grungy pocket and counting it out on their hand, while people who work for a living are standing behind them, on their lunch break. "Oh yeah, I'll get rid of this nickel and two pennies to confuse them, but when I tell them off, I'll get a shiny quarter back! Because I can make change from back when we did it on a stone tablet!"



Who does that?


?

Ahh- but a nickel and two pennies does confuse them often enough I have given up trying.
besides- it’s very difficult digging for change in my grungy pocket that’s stuffed with a Wrangler key fob.
BTW , I still use the same hand calculator I was given when hired in 1972 , don’t make them like they used too either ……. Sonny ?

 

[Whaler27]

I generally agree with your take, but you there are some things where data doesn't line up. The generation just hitting the workforce now is Gen Z, and the data (and my experience) shows them to be exceptionally hard workers. The generation you are referring too is old news and busy raising their own kids now so we won't hear much from them for a bit...

Also, it is in fact harder now than it was for previous generations. The cost of education and housing have dramatically increased relative to income. Gen Z is going to be the first generation in the history of our country to have things worse than the previous generation, that is probably not avoidable at this point. Anecdotally, I have one kid in college and another heading there soon, so I get to see some of this first hand, and it's hard for me to wrap my head around some of the issues they have to deal with.

For those ripping on India, I've been in software engineering for over 25years now and I have worked with literally thousands of Indians both in the US and offshore. The quality has dramatically improved, and the communication gaps have lessened. I don't think I can tell the difference anymore. I do think it's important to not offshore to another company, but to setup a business in India of your own (which is a non-trivial task). If that business offers a path to the US, you will get good candidates, and over time you have to focus on your reputation, it matters much more in India than the US.

I don't really expect Jeep to see much of a difference, they have a shitty culture and the location of their factories won't change that. That being said, lower costs will always create downward pressure on pricing, but at the end of the day, pricing is much more influenced by the market, and increasingly, government.

The cost of education is nuts. Where I did my undergraduate education the cost is fully ten times what it was. The multiple is worse for grad school. Some of that is inflation, but a huge chunk of it is the expansion of classes and degree programs of questionable academic value and even less little utility. Another significant chunk is specialty programs, clubs, sports, and services that all students are required to underwrite, but used to be charged only to the students using those services and programs (Some of the current programs and services didn't exist in my day, but others did.).

 

[Whaler27]

Do Firemen who are union go up ladders slower?
Do Cops who are union deserve less respect?
Teachers are mostly union they are teaching our children.
There is a reason companies resist unions....because they can't ride over everyone.
You on the other hand seem like a perfect employee. ?

I know you’re kidding, but I’d offer these questions in response:

Do firemen who are much slower going up the ladders, duck extra duty, and perform at a lower level get paid less than those who are faster, perform well and consistently volunteer to help others? Is there any combination of reward or penalty to differentiate between those who are really great and those who are dead weight for the team to carry?

Does the union support differential treatment for cops who get “attaboys” from civilians, make more good arrests, and get recognized for valor (as opposed to the cops who make few contacts, never solve a crime, and contribute little?

The best teacher my kids ever had was an AP physics teacher. She was fantastic. When the school faced a budget crunch that class was eliminated and she got a layoff notice — not because of her job performance, but because she’d only been at the school two years. She was so well loved the kids in her classes petitioned the school and protested. Of course, the school was powerless and bound by the union contract, so she was laid off (and subsequently went to work for a local Catholic school we couldn’t afford to have our kids attend.) The teacher who replaced her at the public school was lousy and not competent to teach AP physics. Fortunately, both of my kids benefitted from the great one — and both got 5s on their national AP exams in Physics. Both kids, now in their 30s, credit that woman with kindling their love of science, and both went on to professions that rely heavily upon science. What did the teacher’s union do for the kids who followed my kids and got stuck with the old grump that wasn’t competent to teach AP physics and calculus?

Aside from making job performance irrelevant, the only thing the teacher’s union did for us is ensure my wife or I had to take more days off to stay home with our kids, as the teachers continue to get more “prep days” and other breaks from teaching.

And no, I’m far from perfect. I’ve made plenty of mistakes, and I’ve owned them. What I haven’t done is forced others to fight my battles for me, and I never laid around on my ass while others did my work for me. When I failed I was at least trying to be successful — and I didn’t expect to be rewarded as though I had been successful. Finally, when I was off work it was because my injuries were real. Even when I was injured I felt bad about being out of the game, but some of the slugs were off work so often they had no leave in their banks at all. Mysteriously, a disproportionate percentage of their sick days were on their work-Mondays and Fridays…

Does everybody on your union team contribute equally? You don’t have any slackers that show up late, skate on assignments, or expect others to fill in or cover for them? If so, I believe you are the fortunate exception to the rule. When I was a union member we had some people who did more than twice as much work as others (literally), made fewer errors, and consistently volunteered to help others with challenging jobs. We also had counterparts at the other end of the performance and teamwork spectrum. Unfortunately, our contract allowed no differentiation between the performers and the slugs who barely got by. A slug with fifteen years of seniority earned much more, got more time off, and got priority on shift bidding even if he did half the work and made more errors than the guy with three years on. Not surprisingly, we tended to keep the people like the 14 year guy, and lose the young performers who preferred to work in a merit-based system. This cycle was duplicated repeatedly over the few years I stuck it out, a pattern which can’t help but depreciate the overall performance of the team: it’s the exact opposite of survival of the fittest.

 

[Whaler27]

Probably tilt because they can't believe a boomer is paying with cash...including change. Probably after digging around in a grungy pocket and counting it out on their hand, while people who work for a living are standing behind them, on their lunch break. "Oh yeah, I'll get rid of this nickel and two pennies to confuse them, but when I tell them off, I'll get a shiny quarter back! Because I can make change from back when we did it on a stone tablet!"

Who does that?

?

Are you suggesting that being able to do simple math in your head is useless in our modern age? If so, I disagree. I think having a facile, well trained mind is as helpful as it has ever been. It’s just not as common as it used to be.

There’s nothing inherently virtuous or admirable about being unable to write, spell, calculate, or reason without the benefit of electronics.

 

[STW]

the new math is good, but the newer math is even gooder

 

[NWJeepr]

Are you suggesting that being able to do simple math in your head is useless in our modern age? If so, I disagree. I think having a facile, well trained mind is as helpful as it has ever been. It’s just not as common as it used to be.

No, I’m not suggesting that at all.

What I’m sure you meant to say is needing to mentally calculate change due isn’t as common as it once was. A modern point of sale system takes the mental calculation out of the process for the most part.

Have you ever taught someone to count change for the first time? They’re slow to start and have to think about it until it becomes rote.

 

[Yawnie'sPapa]

I have worked in 2 multinational companies. One was an insurance company - in IT, the other was at Compressor Controls Corp, an electronic engineering company.
I found it interesting that at the insurance company - PFG - the very best as solving problems were from - India. They came up with more simple, elegant solutions than others had been able to come up with.
At CCC - we hired electronic engineers from around the world. Why? Because there weren't enough qualified US engineers to fill the need. Many came from Russia, India, as well as other countries.
In both cases, it wasn't about saving money - because they were brought in to the USA, it was about getting the very best.
At CCC, only a bit over half of the electronic engineers and programmers were born and bred USA. The rest came from around the world and came to Iowa to work there - for the same exact wages.
The USA was falling behind the curve.
Maybe we're back where we were in past decades, when Japanese engineering was far better, and even in the home appliance area, the very best come from Korea.

So maybe think of it in other ways.
Of course, it doesn't help that the UAW has cut the throats of many Americans with their demands. I don't know too many extremely educated and highly skilled people who make what an automaker can make now.
I'd be pissed if i wasn't retired, seeing what some of them make.

 

[jeepingib]

Let’s say I hire a $300/hr consultant to work for me for 6 months. Not uncommon in my industry. They are hired on contracts

At the end of the contract, I need them to continue working for me.

Except, now their rate is $350/hr going forward.

What are my choices as an employer, and what are their choices as contract labor?

Do they have to continue working for me? Absolutely not.

If I need them to continue working for me, do I have to pay the new rate unless I want to find someone else? Absolutely yes, unless I can negotiate other value. What if this contract firm provides other essential services and severing that relationship would have ripple effects throughout the organization? Can I just stop using them? Yes, I can, at my own risk.

Some of you absolutely do not understand the nature of union and other labor contracts.

In a normal work setting you would be able to hire on the open market and pay fair market value for labor.

But when a union like the UAW is involved, they ensure that you can not employ non union workers.

 

[Whaler27]

No, I’m not suggesting that at all.

What I’m sure you meant to say is needing to mentally calculate change due isn’t as common as it once was. A modern point of sale system takes the mental calculation out of the process for the most part.

Have you ever taught someone to count change for the first time? They’re slow to start and have to think about it until it becomes rote.

I taught my kids how to count when they were very, very young. They could (and did) tally their piggy banks in the second grade. It wasn’t rocket science — even for kids who were only seven. I doubt my kids even remember being taught how to do math tasks that simple. My grand kids learned the same skills when the tooth fairy was paying them for lost baby teeth and their parents were paying them allowance for simple chores… Geeze, my kids were learning poker with other kids on scouting camp-trips when they were twelve and fourteen. Every kid there could figure out when the pot was “right”, how to split the pot, when they were short-changed, etc. I’m sorry, but there’s no way to make counting change back sound vexing for anybody over the age of seven or eight. Most kids can (could?) do that LONG before they were old enough to legally work at a fast food restaurant.

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